OT....Removal of Confederate statues and monuments

[CTOkie]

After watching a Confederate statue torn down by demonstrators yesterday in Durham, NC, I cannot help wondering how far this nonsense will go. It was as if a statue of Saddam Hussein or Adolf Hitler was being torn down.
Sam Houston's statue in Houston is under fire because he was a slave owner, even though he opposed secession. Numerous monuments are on the chopping block as well.
Where do we draw the line on this ?
Should the U.S. flag be banned because it can represent the genocide of the American Indian or because it was displayed at KKK rallies early on ?
Should all that the Founding Fathers did be disbanded because many were slave owners or supported slavery ?
Was the Southern cause evil ? If it was only about "slavery, slavery, slavery !" as Ken Burns claims, why were 95% of Confederate soldiers NON-slave owners ?
Should the Confederate battle flag be viewed the same way as the Nazi swastika ?
Were Confederate soldiers akin to Nazi SS troops ?
Was the cause to defend of states' rights invalid or corrupt ?
Is there no hypocrisy in the United States defeating the South, thereby ending slavery.....then finishing its genocide of the American Indian in the West after the war ?
Having last visited Gettysburg in early 2015 (I try to go at least every other year and have been there 18-20 times since 1990), I'm now wondering if the demonization of the Southern cause has cast its shadow over the town and battlefield.
I'm not attempting to stir things up here....I am wanting some opinions from you, knowing that there are those here that have a deep interest in history and perhaps a better understanding of it than me.

 

[Oklabama]

After watching a Confederate statue torn down by demonstrators yesterday in Durham, NC, I cannot help wondering how far this nonsense will go. It was as if a statue of Saddam Hussein or Adolf Hitler was being torn down.
Sam Houston's statue in Houston is under fire because he was a slave owner, even though he opposed secession. Numerous monuments are on the chopping block as well.
Where do we draw the line on this ?
Should the U.S. flag be banned because it can represent the genocide of the American Indian or because it was displayed at KKK rallies early on ?
Should all that the Founding Fathers did be disbanded because many were slave owners or supported slavery ?
Was the Southern cause evil ? If it was only about "slavery, slavery, slavery !" as Ken Burns claims, why were 95% of Confederate soldiers NON-slave owners ?
Should the Confederate battle flag be viewed the same way as the Nazi swastika ?
Were Confederate soldiers akin to Nazi SS troops ?
Was the cause to defend of states' rights invalid or corrupt ?
Is there no hypocrisy in the United States defeating the South, thereby ending slavery.....then finishing its genocide of the American Indian in the West after the war ?
Having last visited Gettysburg in early 2015 (I try to go at least every other year and have been there 18-20 times since 1990), I'm now wondering if the demonization of the Southern cause has cast its shadow over the town and battlefield.
I'm not attempting to stir things up here....I am wanting some opinions from you, knowing that there are those here that have a deep interest in history and perhaps a better understanding of it than me.

I suppose Mount Rushmore is bound for a face lift, pun intended, in that both George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were slave owners as well.

 

[Gramps]

After watching a Confederate statue torn down by demonstrators yesterday in Durham, NC, I cannot help wondering how far this nonsense will go. It was as if a statue of Saddam Hussein or Adolf Hitler was being torn down.
Sam Houston's statue in Houston is under fire because he was a slave owner, even though he opposed secession. Numerous monuments are on the chopping block as well.
Where do we draw the line on this ?
Should the U.S. flag be banned because it can represent the genocide of the American Indian or because it was displayed at KKK rallies early on ?
Should all that the Founding Fathers did be disbanded because many were slave owners or supported slavery ?
Was the Southern cause evil ? If it was only about "slavery, slavery, slavery !" as Ken Burns claims, why were 95% of Confederate soldiers NON-slave owners ?
Should the Confederate battle flag be viewed the same way as the Nazi swastika ?
Were Confederate soldiers akin to Nazi SS troops ?
Was the cause to defend of states' rights invalid or corrupt ?
Is there no hypocrisy in the United States defeating the South, thereby ending slavery.....then finishing its genocide of the American Indian in the West after the war ?
Having last visited Gettysburg in early 2015 (I try to go at least every other year and have been there 18-20 times since 1990), I'm now wondering if the demonization of the Southern cause has cast its shadow over the town and battlefield.
I'm not attempting to stir things up here....I am wanting some opinions from you, knowing that there are those here that have a deep interest in history and perhaps a better understanding of it than me.

Good post.

 

[CTOkie]

I suppose Mount Rushmore is bound for a face lift, pun intended, in that both George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were slave owners as well.

Like I said, how far will we go with this nonsense ? The boundaries can be limitless if one allows it to be.

 

[CalSooner]

It seems like many are attempting to "edit" or "re-write" history. It's foolish.

Yet, it's to be expected from this day and age of political correctness.

 

[OUnabomber]

Agree CT. Its a real shame what these people are doing to this country.

 

[runningback43]

The Washington Monument and the Jefferson Memorial will also have to be toppled in Washington D.C.

 

[iasooner1]

It's only 'free speech' if it's in the interest of the ones doing the speaking...
(talking about the last 8.5 years in particular but it's been this way far too long)

Alinsky, Ayers and Soneto are so proud of their work

 

[DUNNELLONFLBUCK]

Trying to rewrite our history. Confederate boys were every bit the American soldier as they are today. Pure Americans. Will never forget them boys. Never. Proudly flying the confederate flag with the stars and strips. Will be till the day I die

 

[BillyRay]

There has always been differences of opinions in this country. But how it has recently been spun into violence against those whom you disagree with is getting just out of control. Seems every week we are seeing protests turning into just pure chaos and violence.

 

[OUnabomber]

There has always been differences of opinions in this country. But how it has recently been spun into violence against those whom you disagree with is getting just out of control. Seems every week we are seeing protests turning into just pure chaos and violence.

The government should have squashed these riots when they first started happening a year or so ago. They have all been empowered because the majority of the time the police are told to stand down and just let it happen.

 

[BillyRay]

The government should have squashed these riots when they first started happening a year or so ago. They have all been empowered because the majority of the time the police are told to stand down and just let it happen.

With the environment regarding the police these days, it's pretty much a given if they intervene to squash the riots, they are opening themselves up to being ridiculed and abused in the media for resorting to police brutality against people that were trying to exercise their constitutional right to free speech. I feel for our police force as they really are in a no-win situation when things like this erupt.

 

[kcstorm06]

Overtly disrespectful. Things have been taken too far and overboard. It's a disgusting act for sure. God help this country which is stepping on doorstep of chaos and uncivility. Trump cannot make the country great again because this country is full of pouty loud mouths, whiners...and racists on both sides of the battle line. Left to run amuck the last decade with seemingly no accountability.

 

[BillyRay]

The government should have squashed these riots when they first started happening a year or so ago. They have all been empowered because the majority of the time the police are told to stand down and just let it happen.

And really to further the point is what has occurred today. To Trump's credit, he spoke today that there is blame on "both sides" for what happened. And I'm sure going forward the media is going to do everything they can to absolutely roast Trump over his stance. But he is absolutely correct.
Politics and differing opinions have become so unbelievable divisive in this country. It has eroded to the point that fringe lunatic groups are gaining traction and violent riots are becoming more and more common because of it. And the media is doing nothing but fueling the fire with it's non-stop agenda driven programming being crammed down America's throats.

 

[CTOkie]

My next Gettysburg visit may be in October.
Good chance I won't see souvenir Confederate flags for sale....perhaps even busts of CSA generals, Confederate tee shirts, etc.
I will make comments if this happens.

 

[CTOkie]

The Washington Monument and the Jefferson Memorial will also have to be toppled in Washington D.C.

Let's not forget Lincoln who wanted to believed the black race inferior and wanted to deport the slaves back to Africa or the West Indies. His primary goal was to keep the Union together slavery or no slavery.

 

[DUNNELLONFLBUCK]

Let's not forget Lincoln who wanted to believed the black race inferior and wanted to deport the slaves back to Africa or the West Indies. His primary goal was to keep the Union together slavery or no slavery.

This is true

 

[iasooner1]

Let's not forget Lincoln who wanted to believed the black race inferior and wanted to deport the slaves back to Africa or the West Indies. His primary goal was to keep the Union together slavery or no slavery.

That was his damn job CT ! It's true that some historians have written that as his original way of thought (there are revisionists still today that try & view Stalin or Hitler as 'just' men in regards to their politics). The Bible says that no one but God can judge the heart of a man.
IF Abe did not change he sure did a good job of lying with the Gettysburg Address.

 

[WhyNotaSooner]

The government should have squashed these riots when they first started happening a year or so ago. They have all been empowered because the majority of the time the police are told to stand down and just let it happen.

They haven't stopped them because they've become the underground army of the anti-Trump movement.

 

[WhyNotaSooner]

Nov 4th.
Trouble is brewing like we haven't seen since 1968.

 

[Oklabama]

Nov 4th.
Trouble is brewing like we haven't seen since 1968.

I was thinking the same thing. Except this may be worse. My gut feeling is it will be.

 

[bullmarket]

After watching a Confederate statue torn down by demonstrators yesterday in Durham, NC, I cannot help wondering how far this nonsense will go. It was as if a statue of Saddam Hussein or Adolf Hitler was being torn down.
Sam Houston's statue in Houston is under fire because he was a slave owner, even though he opposed secession. Numerous monuments are on the chopping block as well.
Where do we draw the line on this ?
Should the U.S. flag be banned because it can represent the genocide of the American Indian or because it was displayed at KKK rallies early on ?
Should all that the Founding Fathers did be disbanded because many were slave owners or supported slavery ?
Was the Southern cause evil ? If it was only about "slavery, slavery, slavery !" as Ken Burns claims, why were 95% of Confederate soldiers NON-slave owners ?
Should the Confederate battle flag be viewed the same way as the Nazi swastika ?
Were Confederate soldiers akin to Nazi SS troops ?
Was the cause to defend of states' rights invalid or corrupt ?
Is there no hypocrisy in the United States defeating the South, thereby ending slavery.....then finishing its genocide of the American Indian in the West after the war ?
Having last visited Gettysburg in early 2015 (I try to go at least every other year and have been there 18-20 times since 1990), I'm now wondering if the demonization of the Southern cause has cast its shadow over the town and battlefield.
I'm not attempting to stir things up here....I am wanting some opinions from you, knowing that there are those here that have a deep interest in history and perhaps a better understanding of it than me.

CT what are your thoughts about Nicki Haley then the Republican Governor of South Carolina removing a confederate flag? She thought this flag representing the confederacy "hurt and caused pain" for some.

Nicki Haley is now in the Trump administration and Trump appointed her to be the US representative in the United Nations

LINK.......
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/10/politics/nikki-haley-confederate-flag-removal/index.html

 

[roygbell]

CT what are your thoughts about Nicki Haley then the Republican Governor of South Carolina removing confederate flags in her state? She thought this flag representing the confederacy was harmful.

Now Trump appointed her to be the US representative in the United Nations

All of this gnashing of the teeth by the socialist democrats is a hoot. The KKK were all democrats. The democrats created racism. Racism has it's ugly past right in the DEMOCRATIC party. Now they want to rewrite history so they can blame everyone else, except for themselves.

 

[CTOkie]

CT what are your thoughts about Nicki Haley then the Republican Governor of South Carolina removing a confederate flag? She thought this flag representing the confederacy "hurt and caused pain" for some.

Nicki Haley is now in the Trump administration and Trump appointed her to be the US representative in the United Nations

LINK.......
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/10/politics/nikki-haley-confederate-flag-removal/index.html

Haley did what had to be done, whether I like it or not.

 

[iasooner1]

I'm going to butt out of this thread as I have friends I don't want to lose.

Before I go, the story that I find totally repugnant tonight is from a FOX rebroadcast of a legitimate report that Finland is almost totally removing Down's syndrome fetuses by forced abortion. Way to save a buck or whatever their money is called !

Peace out & hurry up football season !

 

[OUnabomber]

If only the left was as angry about North Korea as they are Trump's reaction to what happened at this rally.

 

[bullmarket]

Haley did what had to be done, whether I like it or not.

CT, Is their any difference removing a statue representing the confederacy or a flag representing the confederacy?

I personally believe the statues should remain as they represent Americans fighting in a war that took more American lives than any US war in history. Many times the civil war had family members on each side like brother vs. brother. I am a moderate politically and I see nothing wrong with a museum honoring both those Americans who fought for the confederacy and a museum for those Americans who fought for the Union or maybe one museum for the Civil War covering both sides. Again, the Civil War had more Americans killed than any war we have been in..

 

[CTOkie]

CT, Is their any difference removing a statue representing the confederacy or a flag representing the confederacy?

I personally believe the statues should remain as they represent Americans fighting in a war that took more American lives than any US war in history. Many times the civil war had family members on each side like brother vs. brother. I am a moderate politically and I see nothing wrong with a museum honoring both those Americans who fought for the confederacy and a museum for those Americans who fought for the Union or maybe one museum for the Civil War covering both sides. Again, the Civil War had more Americans killed than any war we have been in..

The Confederate battle flag was used by the KKK and other white supremist groups as a symbol. A statue was never used the same way.

 

[OUnabomber]

I always like going to that store in Branson that has tons of confederate flags, shirts, etc. Its stays busy

 

[soonerfastnloud]

Modern Day slavery is called Human trafficking in the United States. Slavery has been around forever even in the Bible. Just saying.

 

[JConXtsy]

Growing income inequality is a major culprit IMO. Ignorance will always blame low hanging fruit for their woes on every side of every aisle.

 

[JP74017]

Unless I missed it no one on this thread is very insightful on the subject. Sorry. Civil war confederate leader statues are different that honoring Fouding Fathers like Washinton and Jefferson. Founding fathers have to be given credit for, well, founding the country. Did an unbelievable job. Confederate civil war leaders did not create something so valuable. And they clearly fought on the wrong side of history. The reason their statues were erected -- in the late 1800's through the 1920's, when racial violence was extreme and common-- was that southerners were sending the message that they regretted nothing about slavery and demeaning those of African ancestry in our country. African Americans understand this and so it it definitely offensive to them for society to honor Confederate leaders.

 

[WhyNotaSooner]

My Jr.High School in Houston was re-named about a year ago. To be honest, I really have no issue with it. It wasn't used by the KKK as a prop etc. It was named after Dick Dowling, a Confederate General that fought back an invasion from the Gulf of Mexico and prevented the Union from invading the south via Texas.

The fact is the only folks that live in the area now are black people. The kids that go to that school now, and the parents that send them there daily have every right to name that school as they wish. Because simply, no one else really even cares about the school but those that attend it.

 

[OUnabomber]

My Jr.High School in Houston was re-named about a year ago. To be honest, I really have no issue with it. It wasn't used by the KKK as a prop etc. It was named after Dick Dowling, a Confederate General that fought back an invasion from the Gulf of Mexico and prevented the Union from invading the south via Texas.

The fact is the only folks that live in the area now are black people. The kids that go to that school now, and the parents that send them there daily have every right to name that school as they wish. Because simply, no one else really even cares about the school but those that attend it.

iasooner... this is for you...

View embedded media

wow is that for real?

 

[WhyNotaSooner]

All of this gnashing of the teeth by the socialist democrats is a hoot. The KKK were all democrats. The democrats created racism. Racism has it's ugly past right in the DEMOCRATIC party. Now they want to rewrite history so they can blame everyone else, except for themselves.

We need all need to ask ourselves who this 'they' are. But let's get real, at this point none of that matters. I'm not saying you're incorrect, but it really doesn't matter anymore. I mean... folks have cleansed history so much and the young people have bought into it. I'm one who still believes that the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery but rather the South wanting to secede. The North could have easily said, "well have at it. Secede then, as we want no part of slavery." But they wanted the resources, the land, the growth. These same armies that 'freed the slaves' & eventually defeated the South went on to then wipe out entire nations of the Native Indian tribes. This country still has Crosses to Bear on that one. But some feel or believe that blacks are the only people that the US has oppressed.

OK, I'll shut up.

 

[BillyRay]

Unless I missed it no one on this thread is very insightful on the subject. Sorry. Civil war confederate leader statues are different that honoring Fouding Fathers like Washinton and Jefferson. Founding fathers have to be given credit for, well, founding the country. Did an unbelievable job. Confederate civil war leaders did not create something so valuable. And they clearly fought on the wrong side of history. The reason their statues were erected -- in the late 1800's through the 1920's, when racial violence was extreme and common-- was that southerners were sending the message that they regretted nothing about slavery and demeaning those of African ancestry in our country. African Americans understand this and so it it definitely offensive to them for society to honor Confederate leaders.

Sure hope Native Americans don't take notice and demand any museum's, monuments, memorials, or written history about the Wild West is removed and deemed hateful in todays society. I mean that is basically celebrating and remembering native americans being forcefully removed from their lands and homes, and forced onto reservations right?? Did the American Flag fight on the wrong side of history in that sense as well?? What if the mere sight of the American Flag is offensive and hurtful for native americans today....should we ban and remove all American flags from being flown in this country?

 

[WhyNotaSooner]

wow is that for real?

Not sure what your for real question is about but if it's about the Jr High... google it. Dick Dowling Jr High, Houston, TX.

 

[WhyNotaSooner]

Oh crap I forgot I attached the link... as far as I know it's for real. I know one thing, come Nov 4th, I';ll be damn careful where I 'll be coming & going in Houston.

 

[WhyNotaSooner]

Unless I missed it no one on this thread is very insightful on the subject. Sorry. Civil war confederate leader statues are different that honoring Fouding Fathers like Washinton and Jefferson. Founding fathers have to be given credit for, well, founding the country. Did an unbelievable job. Confederate civil war leaders did not create something so valuable. And they clearly fought on the wrong side of history. The reason their statues were erected -- in the late 1800's through the 1920's, when racial violence was extreme and common-- was that southerners were sending the message that they regretted nothing about slavery and demeaning those of African ancestry in our country. African Americans understand this and so it it definitely offensive to them for society to honor Confederate leaders.

And the reason the North did not wipe out, kill, shoot, hang for treason the Robert E. Lees' of the South is because Lincoln wanted to unite the country. He wanted the resources. He played a 'Let's Make a Deal' game w/ the leaders of the South for the betterment of all. The North could have wiped out the South completely. They could have rid the nation of anything & everything of the southern leaders, but they didn't. They couldn't. This in of itself allowed southerners to think all is good. At the site or the build & erection of an statue should have been dealt with then. The North won the war militarily, but they never busted the heart or the will of the people in the south. But the nation moved on. Commerce, MONEY was being made. Now 150 years later, it's F'em, take it all down.

 

[JConXtsy]

Unless I missed it no one on this thread is very insightful on the subject. Sorry. Civil war confederate leader statues are different that honoring Fouding Fathers like Washinton and Jefferson. Founding fathers have to be given credit for, well, founding the country. Did an unbelievable job. Confederate civil war leaders did not create something so valuable. And they clearly fought on the wrong side of history. The reason their statues were erected -- in the late 1800's through the 1920's, when racial violence was extreme and common-- was that southerners were sending the message that they regretted nothing about slavery and demeaning those of African ancestry in our country. African Americans understand this and so it it definitely offensive to them for society to honor Confederate leaders.

Really??? Yeah, we're just a bunch of dummies here.

Give me a break. It's just a symbol to be used any way one sees fit. Unfortunately, a small population uses it for racist propaganda. The majority use is as a symbol of rebellion which is a common youth feeling.

On the other hand, it does represent a defeated ideology, and for that, it's silly for me that it flies in our country in governmental locations.

There were plenty of "real" Americans that didn't believe in secession from England and supported the Brits in the Revolution, but we don't see any states dumb enough to fly the Union Jack.... because it doesn't represent anything interesting.