OT....Removal of Confederate statues and monuments

[OUSOONER67]

The irony in it all is the left, SJW's, Black Lives Matter etc want tolerance but they don't respect anyone else's ideas or beliefs. They want to do the same thing to others that they say has been done to them for decades. Demanding change is one thing, going out and acting in a violent way pushing your agenda is just as bad as what they are fighting against. Racism is not something that was invented in America, it has been a World Wide issue for centuries and still is to this day. Go even deeper than that and there is a type of racism in the Social Classes and its been that way for centuries as well. For me having Native American blood running through my veins the Native Americans have the biggest right to gripe more than any other race here in America. What they endured was and is to this day a stain on our history in America as was Slavery. World history shows us that the conquering of nations and of people's, to the victor went the spoils and as bad as it was people were enslaved and land was taken. Its history and progress, its what humans have been doing since the beginning of time. America did not invent it but our Government is bowing down to these groups for fear of violence and quite possibly guilt. Neither one is acceptable as these groups do not represent the majority of the Country. To me they are nothing more than domestic terrorists and should be dealt with as such.

 

[CTOkie]

Unless I missed it no one on this thread is very insightful on the subject. Sorry. Civil war confederate leader statues are different that honoring Founding Fathers like Washington and Jefferson. Founding fathers have to be given credit for, well, founding the country. Did an unbelievable job. Confederate civil war leaders did not create something so valuable. And they clearly fought on the wrong side of history. The reason their statues were erected -- in the late 1800's through the 1920's, when racial violence was extreme and common-- was that southerners were sending the message that they regretted nothing about slavery and demeaning those of African ancestry in our country. African Americans understand this and so it it definitely offensive to them for society to honor Confederate leaders.

The issue of slavery was not about racial hatred, but about economics. Slavery was cheap (free) labor and it kept the southern economy going.
That slavery is wrong cannot be denied, however.....and racial bigotry from any direction is wrong. Americans who have even a shallow knowledge of this nation's history have to be aware of the two horrible blights in our heritage......slavery and genocide, two things that still hang over us today and seem to be, in some ways, continued.
Native Americans have been mostly extinguished. Their plight has been virtually ignored from the nation's beginning.
Too many African Americans have been pushed into a form of modern day repression which is the welfare state, which doesn't solve poverty, but attempts to make it comfortable. It has diminished the role of the family structure.
We cannot and should not ignore or forget all that has put this nation where it is today. To ignore and deny history, then not learn from it, is national suicide.

 

[roygbell]

An Now 150 years later, it's F'em, take it all down.

That is just the crazy type attitude that has this country all screwed up. You want to take them all down and force your will on everyone else. Where does that kind of attitude stop? Where do you stop? I'm not a Robert E. Lee fan, never flew a rebel flag and to my knowledge no one in the history of my family ever owned a slave. But, this is part of our history. Perhaps, that statue of Robert E. Lee stands as a monument of our past and reminds us our past history. Maybe it keeps us from repeating wrongs.

Every time someone gets their feeling hurt they want to crush and demolish everyone who doesn't agree with them. It is just stupid. We are allowing a small minority of people to force some of this stupidity on the rest of us.

Hell, people like you won't stop with Robert E. Lee. No, next will be Washington and Jefferson and anyone else you don't like or some group doesn't like. It is tearing away the fabric of our being as a nation. If some want to destroy the Robert E. Lee statue as it insults them, they why should those who didn't like Martin Luther King tear him down?

What is the difference. It is just haters on both sides of the issue.

 

[soonerfastnloud]

The free Blacks own slaves themselves, up to the civil war. Now what? Burn our money it has slave owners pix on them.

 

[HERVSTA]

Just what i expected from most of the posters on this forum. sad!!!

 

[soonerfastnloud]

Let's get rid of history all together. I am so glad football is starting.

 

[nail1988]

The sanitation of history by the anarchist on the hard left is exactly what Mao, Stalin, taliban, and Isis have done. These totalitarian methods are digusting. Whats next?

 

[usafmaddog]

After watching a Confederate statue torn down by demonstrators yesterday in Durham, NC, I cannot help wondering how far this nonsense will go. It was as if a statue of Saddam Hussein or Adolf Hitler was being torn down.
Sam Houston's statue in Houston is under fire because he was a slave owner, even though he opposed secession. Numerous monuments are on the chopping block as well.
Where do we draw the line on this ?
Should the U.S. flag be banned because it can represent the genocide of the American Indian or because it was displayed at KKK rallies early on ?
Should all that the Founding Fathers did be disbanded because many were slave owners or supported slavery ?
Was the Southern cause evil ? If it was only about "slavery, slavery, slavery !" as Ken Burns claims, why were 95% of Confederate soldiers NON-slave owners ?
Should the Confederate battle flag be viewed the same way as the Nazi swastika ?
Were Confederate soldiers akin to Nazi SS troops ?
Was the cause to defend of states' rights invalid or corrupt ?
Is there no hypocrisy in the United States defeating the South, thereby ending slavery.....then finishing its genocide of the American Indian in the West after the war ?
Having last visited Gettysburg in early 2015 (I try to go at least every other year and have been there 18-20 times since 1990), I'm now wondering if the demonization of the Southern cause has cast its shadow over the town and battlefield.
I'm not attempting to stir things up here....I am wanting some opinions from you, knowing that there are those here that have a deep interest in history and perhaps a better understanding of it than me.

I have one answer to your entire comment ! Mid term elections
The Democrats are desperate need for something to get out the vote . They routinely sell their identity politics which means you get people to hate a common thing enough to show up on election day ,
Sad but the closer we are to 2018 mid terms worse it will get .
Likely many of those who demonstrated had slave owners in the family background .

 

[soonerdave]

The government should have squashed these riots when they first started happening a year or so ago. They have all been empowered because the majority of the time the police are told to stand down and just let it happen.

All of this is exactly what obama wanted, and we haven't been this racially divided in 60+ years.

 

[OUnabomber]

Today its statues and flags, tomorrow it might be the harming of a person wearing a shirt with old glory on it and they would feel totally justified in doing so.

 

[roygbell]

Just what i expected from most of the posters on this forum. sad!!!

No. As normal you have it backwards. You want to preach tolerance, but you want to tear down those with a different opinion on issue than yours.

You think the Black Lives Matter group is great, but they preach the same kind of hatred as these idiot White Supremacist groups do. Where in the devil does preaching the killing of cops not fall in the definition of domestic terrorist? They are both terrorist groups.

 

[BillyRay]

All of this is exactly what obama wanted, and we haven't been this racially divided in 60+ years.

I have no clue if this is what Obama wanted or not, but there is zero doubt that this country wasn't even CLOSE to being this racially divided prior to Obama being President. And not just racially divided, just divided overall.

 

[DUNNELLONFLBUCK]

The Confederate battle flag was used by the KKK and other white supremist groups as a symbol. A statue was never used the same way.

Our American flag, the stars and stripes were used to crush and kill the American Indians. Both women and children. There's no country in the world that has a flag without blood and bad histories

 

[DUNNELLONFLBUCK]

Will the statue of Thomas Jefferson be destroyed or taken down? He owned slaves, hell he knocked a few up

 

[JConXtsy]

There's no country in the world that has a flag without blood and bad histories

There's no group of people that have ever existed without blood and bad history.

 

[CTOkie]

There's no group of people that have ever existed without blood and bad history.

If there ever was, please let me know.

 

[OUSOONER67]

A lot of the blame falls directly at Obama's and Hillary's feet. Most of what is happening now with these riots is a direct result of both of them playing the Race Card during their campaign for President. Hillary wanted everyone to believe Trump was in the KKK.
And today the media is all over Trump for saying there were fine people on both sides of the Charlottesville Incident and both sides were to blame and the media is losing its mind over that comment. Black Lives Matter calls for the Killing of Police yet the media says nothing nor condemns it. All the Politicians are doing is dividing us, its time to leave racism out of politics as its only used to get votes and that is disgraceful. The number one killer of young black men is not the KKK, White Supremacists or the Police. The number one killer of young black men is other young black men. That is an issue none of them will discuss because you will be called a racist for saying such things.

 

[iasooner1]

The former potus was 1/2 'white'; is he ashamed of that ?
Why did we never see or hear of his caucasion side, from Hawaii ?

 

[bullmarket]

The issue of slavery was not about racial hatred, but about economics. Slavery was cheap (free) labor and it kept the southern economy going.
That slavery is wrong cannot be denied, however.....and racial bigotry from any direction is wrong. Americans who have even a shallow knowledge of this nation's history have to be aware of the two horrible blights in our heritage......slavery and genocide, two things that still hang over us today and seem to be, in some ways, continued.
Native Americans have been mostly extinguished. Their plight has been virtually ignored from the nation's beginning.
Too many African Americans have been pushed into a form of modern day repression which is the welfare state, which doesn't solve poverty, but attempts to make it comfortable. It has diminished the role of the family structure.
We cannot and should not ignore or forget all that has put this nation where it is today. To ignore and deny history, then not learn from it, is national suicide.

CT This is an excellent very accurate post.

 

[iasooner1]

It's happening still; today a Chicago pastor requested the city remove the names Washington and Jackson from public parks... Slippery slope

 

[Schoonerman]

Don't rewrite history, but don't build or erect monuments or statues that honor the treasonous men who took up arms to divide our country. No honor in being a traitor. Take those statues down!

 

[iasooner1]

For what its worth, George Washington was the only FF to Free his slaves...

 

[WP76]

After we take the statues down, what's next--book burning?

I can think of no less tolerant group than the so-called voices of "tolerance" in our country today.

 

[iasooner1]

Speaking of sports: Espin in their infinite ignorance chose to air today a portion of an "Auction" for fantasy football. A white man 'paid' $34.00 for Odell Beckham, which has him all verklempt. Madness ! Now we have to pity the 1%-er athletes...

 

[Oklabama]

For what its worth, George Washington was the only FF to Free his slaves...

Yes, he did. After he died. It was in his will that all his slaves were to be given their freedom upon his death. And I believe Jefferson did something similar, but not absolutely certain.

 

[iasooner1]

No, good old George was the Only one.

 

[iasooner1]

FREE abortions for All (including illegal aliens) is now the law in Oregon.

God help us all. CFB starts in two weeks

 

[OUnabomber]

I'm just wondering if most people in this country have the same mindset as the majority do on this board. You would think we are in the vast minority by watching the news.

 

[iasooner1]

Don't rewrite history, but don't build or erect monuments or statues that honor the treasonous men who took up arms to divide our country. No honor in being a traitor. Take those statues down!

The Union never prosecuted, convicted or executed any Southern leaders after the Civil War for Treason. The revisionists of the last 20 years need to just chill. The next step will be reparations for a tiny minority (or a bunch of casinos)

 

[BillyRay]

I swear I am so sick and tired of politicians. How many are handling this ordeal trying to play on Trumps words is the perfect example. At this rate I will vote Trump again just our of sheer hatred of the rank and file politicians who are playing the racism angle just to bolster their own reelections going forward, and not giving a damn about what their remarks and how it is fueling the fire in ripping this country apart.

 

[CTOkie]

Don't rewrite history, but don't build or erect monuments or statues that honor the treasonous men who took up arms to divide our country. No honor in being a traitor. Take those statues down!

The Union never prosecuted, convicted or executed any Southern leaders after the Civil War for Treason. The revisionists of the last 20 years need to just chill. The next step will be reparations for a tiny minority (or a bunch of casinos)

Maybe those who want to continue to punish the South now should heed what Lincoln said in his second inauguration in reuniting the country "With malice towards none and charity for all".

 

[WhyNotaSooner]

This is a Periscope of the riots in Charlottesville. It has 4 different segments covering about 60 mins worth, from Start to the tragic murder. Quite interesting that the media is taking a hands off approach on BLM & Antifica. They continue to callcthem 'counter protestors'. https://www.pscp.tv/FaithGoldy/1BRJjyjBPyNGw?

 

[BillyRay]

Quite interesting that the media is taking a hands off approach on BLM & Antifica.

Maybe it's because groups like BLM, Antifa, and BAMN are newer groups that aren't well known yet. White nationalists and Neo-Nazi groups have a long history of history of hatred and violence that is easy to target. But as these newer groups target more and more activities with their threats of violence in hopes of "shutting them down", then I have a feeling that years from now people will look back and think, "Damn, Trump was right all those years ago".

 

[roygbell]

I'm just wondering if most people in this country have the same mindset as the majority do on this board. You would think we are in the vast minority by watching the news.

That is a good question. My guess is that in the middle of our country we are pretty much the same. The fact that Trump won the electoral college probably reflects the way most of the people in these same states probably think about the same on these issues.

I am so tired of the far terrorist left trying to tell us what we need to think and believe and how we are supposed to act.

We just had some folks from Chicago buy the house next door to us on the West. You know why they moved to Oklahoma? The man's wife was sick of having to worry if her husband was going to survive driving back and forth to work every day. A shooting every 150 minutes, their words, not mine. They can't believe that Rahm Emanuel is still fighting to keep Chicago as a sanctuary city.

My thinking is that we still have a core of right thinking people in this country. I think if the Democrats in DC continue on this big of blaming everyone else and keep up the race baiting that they are going to lose more ground in the 18 elections.

 

[WhyNotaSooner]

I believe Bannon's comments are correct, paraphrasing a bit,
"Let them have monuments, we'll concentrate on economics & jobs and we'll win elections."

 

[JConXtsy]

Don't rewrite history, but don't build or erect monuments or statues that honor the treasonous men who took up arms to divide our country. No honor in being a traitor. Take those statues down!

Schooner, I somewhat agree with you, but then I start thinking about history and almost all historical "figures" were traitors or treasonous. That's essentially what incites change in the world... someone going against the grain. I know this is just semantics, but in a way it's true.

Almost all nations are founded on some sort of treason against a prior nation.

 

[CTOkie]

That is a good question. My guess is that in the middle of our country we are pretty much the same. The fact that Trump won the electoral college probably reflects the way most of the people in these same states probably think about the same on these issues.

I am so tired of the far terrorist left trying to tell us what we need to think and believe and how we are supposed to act.

We just had some folks from Chicago buy the house next door to us on the West. You know why they moved to Oklahoma? The man's wife was sick of having to worry if her husband was going to survive driving back and forth to work every day. A shooting every 150 minutes, their words, not mine. They can't believe that Rahm Emanuel is still fighting to keep Chicago as a sanctuary city.

My thinking is that we still have a core of right thinking people in this country. I think if the Democrats in DC continue on this big of blaming everyone else and keep up the race baiting that they are going to lose more ground in the 18 elections.

Democrats play the race card and class warfare card....so sanctuary cities add to their votes. They're poverty pimps. Promise a nanny state and people come running.

 

[JConXtsy]

Democrats play the race card and class warfare card....so sanctuary cities add to their votes. They're poverty pimps. Promise a nanny state and people come running.

But at the same time, they give you blinding opportunity and hope.

http://www.powerball.com/pb_home.asp

 

[BillyRay]

That is a good question. My guess is that in the middle of our country we are pretty much the same. The fact that Trump won the electoral college probably reflects the way most of the people in these same states probably think about the same on these issues.

I am so tired of the far terrorist left trying to tell us what we need to think and believe and how we are supposed to act.

We just had some folks from Chicago buy the house next door to us on the West. You know why they moved to Oklahoma? The man's wife was sick of having to worry if her husband was going to survive driving back and forth to work every day. A shooting every 150 minutes, their words, not mine. They can't believe that Rahm Emanuel is still fighting to keep Chicago as a sanctuary city.

My thinking is that we still have a core of right thinking people in this country. I think if the Democrats in DC continue on this big of blaming everyone else and keep up the race baiting that they are going to lose more ground in the 18 elections.

You're exactly right Roy. Outside of the major population centers on mainly the West and East coasts, the far-left agenda you see daily in the news thankfully hasn't gained much traction in the heartland of the country. Sure there is a mix of liberals and conservatives from coast to coast, but the heart of the country is more of a blend of the two.

And like CT said, liberals and Dems continually go to the race card. That's fine if there are instances of actual racism. But to play the race card over and over to score political points is doing nothing but destroying this country. Just proves they care more about political points to win elections, than they are about the health of this country. They would rather destroy it as long as they remain in power.

Always good to see you stopping by to post Roy!!

 

[WhyNotaSooner]

Don't rewrite history, but don't build or erect monuments or statues that honor the treasonous men who took up arms to divide our country. No honor in being a traitor. Take those statues down!

They weren't traitors. If you believe this, then you must have been taught this. And you were taught wrong. Perhaps your history books were already cleansed to fit a mantra that was more to the likings of some. But that doesn't make it correct. They believed they were fighting for State's Rights as written by the founding fathers. You can't be so naive to believe the entire south fought to keep their slaves. 95% of those that fought had no slaves, owned no slaves. They fought because they believed their Federal Government was getting too big and making decisions they had no right to do. They wished to secede. Lincoln did not want this. He needed and wanted the resources of the south. A few facts... that your history classes left out.

Robert E. Lee was married to George Washington's grand daughter. BTW, Washington had slaves as well. So did Grant. Lee was also requested to lead the Northern Army by Lincoln but his heart & life was with the South. Another tidbit... Today's Arlington Cemetery was part of Lee's estate. He served his country before and AFTER the Civil War. Calling Lee a traitor is like calling Lincoln a traitor to the US Constitution.

Are you wanting all things George Washington, Jefferson and Grant removed as well?