Plainosooner as I stated this is why you were slammed on the pay board. No one is above criticism and that includes the head man. When we play badly looking undisciplined and a bad game plan you want to put it 100% on the players and no fault of the staff. Surely you realize this kind of opinion is hard for anyone to take serious
Yesterday, we weren't as bad as it seemed, but ...
- Thread starter Plainosooner
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I haven't read an OU-Houston post that has suggested firing Bob. Whenever fans are critical of the coach it shouldn't be taken as wanting to fire him. This is the only sports site I read or post on, but I bet Saban gets the same treatment when he loses a game that his team is a double digit favorite. Like when he loss against Oklahoma in the Sugar Bowl. I personally think Bob out coach him that night. The kid that won the Heisman last year was almost unstoppable yet Saban put the game in the QB's hands when the game was still close, IMO. That was a big mistake. My Bama relatives told me that Saban got a lot of criticism. I asked them if they wanted to trade coaches and I got "of course not". Then there was Saban's losses to Utah and Ohio State. I heard a lot of crying especially the way Bama loss, which is exactly what OU fans are complaining about now. OU looked bad Saturday. Fans take a loss hard, but hate losing when nothing works most of the game. OU has better athletes than Houston yet got beat. That's disappointing. Houston has a good team but OU should beat them, or at the minimum, play them very close. It wasn't even close the second half. To dismiss the suggestion that the coaching staff had no influence in that loss is just crazy.
Some criticism is fair. But the Bob bashers mostly don't have a clue about what is wrong after a loss. And I've found over the years, that the Bob bashers find that they are above criticism, but want to have maximum freedom to criticize all they want, because they think they know. There are surely a few who do. But most are close to clueless, and prove it with what they don't understand.
What makes you think you know so much anyway? Never mind, I know the answer. I have seen you post the same stuff over and over again. I recall one poster that said he coached high school football and someone (I thought it was you, but maybe not, could have been ST) challenged his analysis of the game because he didn't have a clue and was surprised he was a football coach. Anyway, when I read it I thought "man, this guy thinks he knows more than a guy actually coaching". Hey, I don't agree with everything posters say about the poor coaching or their reasons for a loss, but to use phrases like "don't have a clue" or "doesn't have any idea what they are talking about" is pretty arrogant. I'm not saying you have a superiority complex, but damn. Plaino, you are a very knowledgeable guy, but you are just a poster like the rest of us. I have absolutely no problem with you voicing your opinions, but really find it bit snooty when you talk down to the rest of us. Let me end with one question.... how many times have you ever been critical of Bob Stoops? I bet you can count the number on one hand.
Plaino has a good historical insight on the Oklahoma program and can offer insightful analysis into the "x's and o's" of football, but his credibility is harmed by condescending and ego-driven remarks and claiming to "keep fighting the good fight, the noble fight" in defending coaches....when all 99% of us are trying to do is talk football.
CT, I agree, but I don't want to come on like I want to gang up on him. I want "everyone" to stay on the board and just talk football. I think this is one of those subjects that Josh may find offensive so I think its best to just move on. Losing right out the box to a team you are favored to beat by 11 points gets on everyone's bad side. If the team goes on to win the conference, I will give Bob the credit. If the team continues to play poorly, then maybe Plaino has a point, i.e., we just aren't that good. Based on the talent we have that would be a problem that the entire squad can chew on, players and coaches alike.
Agree Oklabama.
There is no doubt in my mind if I talked football in person with ANYONE here it would be cordial and fun.
Soonersincefitty
Sooner starter
I'm reserving judgement for the time being.
One loss does not a season make.
In fact 6 of the 8 teams in the previous two CFPs have had one.
Both title winners had one loss.
So, let's see how it plays out. If we beat buckeye at Norman then the horn, all should be forgiven with the CFP committee.
You same usual suspects were spitting the bit last year when Texas won.
We'll see, I think Bob can turn this around.
Then again I'm more optimistic than the average fan.
One loss does not a season make.
In fact 6 of the 8 teams in the previous two CFPs have had one.
Both title winners had one loss.
So, let's see how it plays out. If we beat buckeye at Norman then the horn, all should be forgiven with the CFP committee.
You same usual suspects were spitting the bit last year when Texas won.
We'll see, I think Bob can turn this around.
Then again I'm more optimistic than the average fan.
Plainosooner you made the statement posters are calling for the firing of Stoops. Who made this statement?
I would remind you that this thread started with my analysis of the game. And immediately several of you came to tell me how wrong I was. It was all about a lousy head coach.
Then almost everything I said was verified in the Monday media meet. I think we can disagree with how elite Bob might be. I don't think there is a better coach in the country. I think that Bob at Bama or tOSU or any other school in the country with an elite in state recruiting base would have at least as good a record as Saban or Meyer.
And it's okay to disagree. But those who whine about him as over the hill, or no fire left, or never really was that good. Or that he is not a top coach in the country, just don't get it.
The same people who kind of backhanded lynsey complimented him for finally hiring an elite OC in Riley, are the same guys asking why Lincoln was so bad on Saturday. That's crazy.
I will back up Plaino in this regard. The fury over losses and calling for Bob's head rears it's ugly head over on the pay board. I won't say it's rampant over there, but there are a handful of voices that want Bob gone. The vast majority of posters realize that is ridiculous.
I agree that Bob Stoops is as good of a head coach as is out there.
However, I'm not convinced he's a great coordinator, either defensive or offensive, in today's game. The best coaches seem to also be elite coordinators. The benefit there is that they don't miss a beat with coaching changes, since the true shot-caller is always around.
I could get hired as Saban's defensive coordinator, and they'd still be considered one of the greatest defenses in college. I could get hired as Urban's offensive coordinator, and they'd still be one of the best offenses in college.
To me, Stoops and Miles are a lot alike. They both need a magic combination of everything to win. They both lose often with superior talent.
However, I'm not convinced he's a great coordinator, either defensive or offensive, in today's game. The best coaches seem to also be elite coordinators. The benefit there is that they don't miss a beat with coaching changes, since the true shot-caller is always around.
I could get hired as Saban's defensive coordinator, and they'd still be considered one of the greatest defenses in college. I could get hired as Urban's offensive coordinator, and they'd still be one of the best offenses in college.
To me, Stoops and Miles are a lot alike. They both need a magic combination of everything to win. They both lose often with superior talent.
And this is the main reason for people criticizing Stoops. Stoops wins alot of games no doubt. But I just read an article that pointed out in his 47 losses as OUs head coach, 17 were in games where OU were double-digit favorites. That is literally averaging one of those type losses a year. Then the last 2 years where OU played teams with great talent in bowl games, OU took royal ass beatings that were embarrassing.
No plaino not anymore. In my opinion Stoops is a top 10-15 coach but not the best. Could we get better? Who knows but I'm not going to be a fan who thinks we should kick him to the curb. However as billyray just posted you can't dispute those facts. Can you name another elite program who has had as many embarrassing losses as Oklahoma in the last 15 years?
Plaino let me ask you a question,
Do you defend Stoops because of his career to this point and believe OU "owes" it to him to support him??
Or, do you defend him because you think Bob is capable of leading OU back to a national title again in the future??
Or better yet, do you defend him because Bob wins just enough games a year to keep you content, and you are simply scared to death of the 90s returning if Bob ever leaves?
Do you defend Stoops because of his career to this point and believe OU "owes" it to him to support him??
Or, do you defend him because you think Bob is capable of leading OU back to a national title again in the future??
Or better yet, do you defend him because Bob wins just enough games a year to keep you content, and you are simply scared to death of the 90s returning if Bob ever leaves?
I believe Plaino would answer "yes" to questions #1 and #2. And that's okay with me. Bob has done a lot for the program.....isn't that an understatement. I'm sure Plaino still feels Bob can win another championship. That's where we disagree, and I hope to hell I'm wrong and he's right. I hope there aren't any fans that would think about answering yes to #3, and I don't know of any poster on the board that would. If and when Bob leaves, OU will be just fine. The trick is having the right guy available to hire so timing is critical. Just my two cents.
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I've had the pleasure of meeting Plaino in person. In the past, I've been confused by his undying optimism. I think I learned a lot that day that I met him. His optimism is a product of his unconditional love for OU. It's like asking a parent to be critical of how their child is performing, some can't do it, and it's not really fair to make them do it.
I'll say this, Plaino had a perpetual grin on his face when I met him and discussed football. He really really enjoys this stuff, and his disarming demeanor doesn't come through in writing.
I'll say this, Plaino had a perpetual grin on his face when I met him and discussed football. He really really enjoys this stuff, and his disarming demeanor doesn't come through in writing.
We all love OU and being critical doesn't make anyone less of a fan. As stated Oklahoma has more embarrassing losses than any other elite program the past 10-15 years. While you say it's hard for him to critical of Oklahoma ( coaches), he has no issue only blaming the players
Good God. I though firing Josh was the answer to all of our problems?? 40 pts a game looks pretty good doesn't it? Spoiled rotten brats.
Until we get WRs that can get open and move the ball down the field, we're screwed...as predicted.
And this board is STILL like a radio call in show. A lot of opinions, very little common sense or knowledge and a few too many idiots. How did Yankees get back on here?
ill be back next year after the consensus is to fire Riley and Stoops. Brilliant.
Until we get WRs that can get open and move the ball down the field, we're screwed...as predicted.
And this board is STILL like a radio call in show. A lot of opinions, very little common sense or knowledge and a few too many idiots. How did Yankees get back on here?
ill be back next year after the consensus is to fire Riley and Stoops. Brilliant.
If you think Heupel would have engineered 40pts against Houston the other day, then you need to be looking in a mirror when you throw out insults.
Fair question. I defend Bob, because I believe he is a great coach, and I think OU is incredibly lucky to have him and to have had him for 18 seasons. And I'm thrilled that we have Joe C and Boren, who understand that, and so long as they are the two top guys in those kinds of decisions, we'll have him as long as he'll stay.
I know that people get tired of my bringing up my time as a manager at OU. I only bring it up here to say that I've been around a bunch of great coaches in my life. Barry and Jimmy Johnson were assistants when I was at OU. Chuck Fairbanks was maybe a half step below great, but Chuck was a pretty special head football coach. He changed pro football. He took the "Oklahoma Defense" to the NFL, and that had never been done before. There are few franchises in pro football that haven't used it at least part of the time in the 43 years sonce.
And maybe the best coach I ever worked for, certainly my all time favorite, was the guy who took over at Plano my first year in the program, John Clark. The stadium in Plano is named after him.
All of those guys were different, but they were all great coaches for different reasons. But none of those guys was any better than Bob Stoops. There are a whole lot of different attributes of a college head football coach. Bob understands them better than just about anybody. I believe I know pretty well what a great coach looks like.
I think that Bob has had the best talent in the country one time in his career, and that was 2008. But when we went to the NC game, we played a Florida team with close to the same talent. They were getting their stud ball carrier back for that game. We lost OUr's. And in addition, we were playing OUr third team middle linebacker in his first college start. Those two issues were the difference in that game. That night, we didn't have the best talent. We also got several tough breaks and we couldn't overcome it.
Those who thought that DeMarco was just another guy, found out differently when he got voted onto the NFL top ten player list in 2015. Chris Brown was a very solid college running back. But he never made even a pro practice squad. He wasn't DeMarco Murray.
I would tell you one of my old coaching kids story to make a point. I used to coach in leagues in Plano where we drafted our teams every year. The coaches could reserve one HC's son and one assistants, but if most of the coaches were competent. It balanced the talent, and it was really fun to coach in that experience.
We had some achiever guys in those leagues who never had great sons to coach, and it put them at a disadvantage. Those achiever guys always had terrific records and almost always made the playoffs, but they seldom won championships, because the guys with the stud sons had a little better talent. Those guys I admired coached their tails off all season, and it was really tough to beat them in the regular season. They outworked everybody.
Then when the playoffs started, everybody worked harder. Scouted more thoroughly. They put in the effort those achiever guys did, at the end. So those guys whose teams weren't as talented, were great coaches. But some talked about them never winning championships. sometimes a little derisively. But those achiever guys had elevated their teams just to get there.
I know that OU isn't talent short. But that's if you're comparing them to Baylor or TCU or OSU. But I believe Bob has gotten several teams to a national level, who weren't as talented as teams they were ahead of. He outcoached others during the year, then ended up against better talent in a bowl game. Still won some of those.
Some might point to the LSU game, but we were playing with Jason at about 70% if that, and LSU had a great defense. And they were playing essentially a home game, kind of like last Saturday.
I hear people complain repeatedly about losing recruiting battles and blame Bob for some sort of lack of effort. That is nonsense. Bob's pride wouldn't allow that. That pride is obvious to me. He reminds me in many ways of John Clark, though they are very different men.
Bob's attention to detail is elite. But when I look at OUr players, we are generally smaller than most quality teams we plays. We can overcome that with great coaching and overall team speed. But as long as the state of Oklahoma continues to produce a half dozen or fewer top college player prospects every year, and some of those grew up wearing orange and black, then we can still draw quality players from Cali and Texas and some other places.
But those guys don't come to OU to be a second team guy. It means that we're not going to have as much depth as other programs coming from states in the southeast, or other high school talent hotbeds.
That 2008 Sooner team had several elite Oklahoma players. And when we get those guys, it's a great base. Houston was not less talented Saturday than OU was. We still could have won. We were playing a walk on quarterback, starting our third best receiver who was a walk on. OUr best backup inside Olineman is a walk on. If anybody from a power five conference had UHouston's record last season and bowl game result, and returning elite quarterback, they'd have been ranked close to us, and playing at home. I don't see Saturday as an upset, though I'm upset.
So I defend Bob because I believe he's an elite coach, who doesn't deserve the badgering. I defend him because if he leaves, we won't find better. And I absolutely agree that with the recruiting that seems to be going on right now, we have a change to build up OUr talent level high enough to get there.
I think this group has a chance. But I also saw a pretty big gap between OUr group and Bama's. But mostly I support Bob because the reactions in most posts whenever we lose is irrational at best. And I think a little sanity is called for.
There are only two Big XII coaches, who have coached in the CCG that Bob has not coached against, Tom Osborne and John Mackovic. The others are Mack Brown 9-6, R.C. Slocum, Frank Solich 1-1, Bill Calahan 3-0, Bo Pelini 2-1, Bill Snider 10-3, Gary Barnett 4-1, R.C. Slocum 3-1 and Gary Pinkel 7-1.
So except for Solich, Bob has a winning record against every coach in the conference who ever coached in the CCG. And Solich's only win in Lincoln came when we had OUr quarterback tear up his knee on a non-contact hit.
Since the CCG went away for awhile, you'd add Mike Gundy 9-2, Art Briles 6-3, Gary Patterson 4-2. So Bob has a winning record head to head with every conference championship coach and every one who played for one. You can't find anybody else like that in major college football except maybe Saban. At can't be Saban and Meyer, because they've faced each other. Maybe it's Meyer. Not anybody else who's been around for awhile, anyway.
That is a level of consistency that is pretty incredible by any fair standard.
There are maybe a half dozen active guys nationally with a winning record against Bob. But they are all guys who've played him once and won. Sumlin and Meyer have done that. MIles v BStoops is 2-2.
There are things about Bob that I haven't loved. But this isn't the thread for that.
I know that's long, but you did ask.
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It seems some of you forgot the rules...
We've had a long-time poster lost for good.
Sorry to see that happen but the rules are still pinned and have not changed.
If you see further personal attacks and bickering, feel free to report it to me. Thanks.
We've had a long-time poster lost for good.
Sorry to see that happen but the rules are still pinned and have not changed.
If you see further personal attacks and bickering, feel free to report it to me. Thanks.
I'm reserving judgement for the time being.
One loss does not a season make.
In fact 6 of the 8 teams in the previous two CFPs have had one.
Both title winners had one loss.
So, let's see how it plays out. If we beat buckeye at Norman then the horn, all should be forgiven with the CFP committee.
You same usual suspects were spitting the bit last year when Texas won.
We'll see, I think Bob can turn this around.
Then again I'm more optimistic than the average fan.
I'm with you Fitty. I remember a few years back almost losing to UTEP and Tulsa in the early season, then going on to have a good year. Maybe this is a wake up call for these guys and they play like their hair is on fire against Ohio State.
Soonersincefitty
Sooner starter
Yes, here's another sobering fact...OU is not going to be in the final four every dang year, and it would be folly to assume that.
I blame it on parity more than coaching and players.
Switzer's right, its not as easy as when he was there.
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Yet another factor is having 20 fewer scholarships now than when Switzer coached. Switzer had players who hardly played that could have started or at least been good contributors elsewhere on OU's roster.
Was just discussing this with a guy today.
Case in point: Bosworth suspended from the OB and Dante Jones was MVP. (Wiki says Jones and Tillman both MVPs).
Soonersincefitty
Sooner starter
Damn, busted on a spell check.
Actually, I was just posting to make sure I wasn't the one who was banned.
Who was it?
It was long, but well worth the time to read. I don't think anyone will disagree with your thinking that Bob has been an incredibly consistent coach at OU in terms of winning games, and that OU has been very lucky to have him all these years. Everyone knows Bob is a great coach, and his career stacks up with the best in the country. But unless I missed it, I also noticed you never said you think he will win another National Title while at OU.
Look, I agree that Bob will continue to win lots of games in the future if he stays at OU. But I also believe that he will never win another National Title at OU. That's quite the departure from what I thought the night OU beat FSU for #7. If you had asked me that night how many Natty's Bob would rack up if he stayed at OU for 15+ years, I would have bet my life that he would win no less than 3-4 more titles. And I still kept that confidence even up to 2008 and shortly after that he would win more Natty's. But here we are 15+ years later, and the horrible losses we as fans have had to endure every season keep piling up, and over time it's chipped away at that confidence to the point I am today and realize I have to accept the fact that he will prolly never win #8.
I have no doubt the stars and planets can align and Bob can take OU to a playoff. But I don't think he would be able to outcoach other elite coaching staffs with elite players 2 games in a row to win a National Title. I certainly hope Bob proves me wrong, and I will HAPPILY take my licks from everyone on here if I end up being wrong.
But that doesn't mean I think Bob should be shown the door. I said a few years ago, that if Bob was not capable of making the changes needed to his program then it's possibly time for him to hang it up. But he completely revamped his staff, and fired and/or forced out longtime members of his staff to bring in fresh coaches. So he clearly took a hard look at his program and realized things had to change, and I love the guy for making those tough decisions. Since then recruiting has really picked up, and has only gotten better. So I'm as big a supporter of Bob staying to see how the next handful of years turn out with the changes he has made. But I don't think that makes him immune from fans being critical of him.
And I'm sorry Plaino, but I absolutely disagree with your assumption that OU win never do better once Bob leaves. You started out your post giving praise to JoeC and Boren. Well, your comment on OU not finding better is a disservice to JoeC in not having any confidence in him finding a coach to replace Bob when that day inevitably comes. I've seen you post about how Saban and Meyer are not coming here, so OU cannot do better than Bob. Well, Bob Stoops was not a bigtime name when he was hired. He was not a Saban or Meyer when he came to OU. JoeC hired him as a hot-commodity assistant when everyone in the OU land was clamoring for a big name hire. JoeC made a grand slam hire with Bob all those years ago, and it's incredibly disrespectful that you have zero confidence in his ability to hire another great coach when the day comes for Bob to hang it up.
Lol, well I've been known to make very long-winded posts at times. My reply to Plaino being one of them of course. So I would be a hypocrite if I chose not to read another persons very long-winded post just because of it's length.
Soonersincefitty
Sooner starter
BR, when I wrote this: "So I defend Bob because I believe he's an elite coach, who doesn't deserve the badgering. I defend him because if he leaves, we won't find better. And I absolutely agree that with the recruiting that seems to be going on right now, we have a change to build up OUr talent level high enough to get there." I was trying to say that I think we have a chance to win another natty with Bob as coach. So we would disagree. But I really appreciate the spirit of your post.
We can have this kind of discussion that I think is fruitful, and a good standard to continue. I think OU might match Bob with some young guy who could be as good as Bob. But I think we'd be hard pressed to find better. As an official old guy as of a month ago, I like the wisdom that comes from the gray hair the Bob likely is coloring a bit this days. His hair looks darker to me than it did 17 years ago. Just a hunch; no proof. So I don't see any advantage to encouraging him to leave.
So I do think that Bob could absolutely get us there again. I think he has a better chance of doing it than anybody else that Joe C might bring in.And my strong preference would be that Joe doesn't have to sort through that process until Bob decides he wants to leave. I believe he's absolutely earned that.
And I also think that for those who want us to get eight and nine and ten, that they were being extremely counter productive to rag on who he is in the aftermath of every loss. It cannot help. Some would argue that it doesn't hurt, but they cannot know that. We understand that it cannot help.
So I recognize the freedom of anybody to speak their piece, I don't understand the incessant bashing, especially on the premium board.
This really helps me understand where you're coming from. I hope the vice versa is true.
I also wanted to add here how much I appreciated J Con's post about meeting me. That was incredibly thoughtful.
We can have this kind of discussion that I think is fruitful, and a good standard to continue. I think OU might match Bob with some young guy who could be as good as Bob. But I think we'd be hard pressed to find better. As an official old guy as of a month ago, I like the wisdom that comes from the gray hair the Bob likely is coloring a bit this days. His hair looks darker to me than it did 17 years ago. Just a hunch; no proof. So I don't see any advantage to encouraging him to leave.
So I do think that Bob could absolutely get us there again. I think he has a better chance of doing it than anybody else that Joe C might bring in.And my strong preference would be that Joe doesn't have to sort through that process until Bob decides he wants to leave. I believe he's absolutely earned that.
And I also think that for those who want us to get eight and nine and ten, that they were being extremely counter productive to rag on who he is in the aftermath of every loss. It cannot help. Some would argue that it doesn't hurt, but they cannot know that. We understand that it cannot help.
So I recognize the freedom of anybody to speak their piece, I don't understand the incessant bashing, especially on the premium board.
This really helps me understand where you're coming from. I hope the vice versa is true.
I also wanted to add here how much I appreciated J Con's post about meeting me. That was incredibly thoughtful.
Lol, ya it was a novel for sure!! But it's a quality post.I read all of it, I had to stop and take a shave halfway through...no biggie.
Ah... That great, "you're clueless, but I'm not..."
Don't you "think" you know, as well?
Maybe you do. Or maybe you don't.
I think it is the condescending tone you have towards those who disagree with you more than anything else. Josh bashers were clueless as well. Then Bob fired him. Was he reading the board and feeling pressured?
He is/was a sports writer. Not sure if he did opinion writing as well, but the first lesson you're taught in grade school when writing an argumentative essay is that you don't "think" your opinion is right, it IS right. You take a side and go full throttle with it, no soft statements, no backdoors to weasel out of. <-- I just wanted to use soft, throttle and backdoor in the same sentence. You see what your posting style is doing to me?
