ADVERTISEMENT

sugar bowl attendance

Every time the talk of whether or not college athletes should be paid I think of Jason White. Here was a guy that gave both of his knees to the University of Oklahoma, won a Heisman and didn't have much prospect for a professional career whatsoever.

He was never able to capitalize off of his name when he was a legitimate star in the state and a household name across the sports world. Imagine the loss of potential income he had because he couldn't get paid for endorsements while in college.

I don't think players should be paid but I do think they should be able to make money off of their likeness. Especially in the case of guys like Jason who are great college players but won't make a living as a professional.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BillyRay
I don't care about those guys. They were trying to unionize and be considered employees of the university. I couldn't care less about that. But I do understand their side of the argument in trying to dismantle the "student-athlete" scam the NCAA has perpetuated over the decades to shield universities.

So you don't care, but then you do care? You are now riding the fence, my friend...
 
I get it. You're married to the idea regardless of the negatives. It's all about the player to you. That's great in golf and MMA, not so good for amateur team sports though.

I'm not basing anything off what school I root for. I'm basing it on what CFB would look like. Do you remember college football before scholarship limits? There's a reason they made limits. There is no more parity in college football if players can cash in on endorsements. Hell, the NFL recognized the problem and made a strict salary cap. The same teams that can get their players the deals signing on the top players and playing for the championships every single year. Revenue loser overall for CFB.

Maybe you like the idea of a few dominant teams Playstation style. Most of us don't. The good thing is the NCAA and the amateurism of college football isn't going away any time soon.

And I would hate the idea of corporate decals on the unis. I deplore the use of trophy stickers that many colleges use for good play. Those buckeyes on the Ohio State, for example, suck. Purely junior high! I had to add something to this argument. This is all I got. Pretty lame I know but I'm glad Medic brought it up so I could "contribute".
 
Every time the talk of whether or not college athletes should be paid I think of Jason White. Here was a guy that gave both of his knees to the University of Oklahoma, won a Heisman and didn't have much prospect for a professional career whatsoever.

He was never able to capitalize off of his name when he was a legitimate star in the state and a household name across the sports world. Imagine the loss of potential income he had because he couldn't get paid for endorsements while in college.

I don't think players should be paid but I do think they should be able to make money off of their likeness. Especially in the case of guys like Jason who are great college players but won't make a living as a professional.
I addressed this already, but here is what he could have had...

"
Men’s Basketball $10 million

Football $10 million

Baseball $5 million

Men’s Ice Hockey $3 million

Women’s Basketball $250,000

*Exceptional Student-Athletes in other sports not listed above, who have demonstrated a strong likelihood of a professional career in their sport, may be eligible for coverage under the ESDI Program, and can be reviewed on a case by case basis.

In addition, an accidental death (AD) only benefit is included with the PTD coverage. The AD benefit will match the amount of the premium on the coverage. Additional accidental death (AD) coverage is available up to the maximum PTD amount, for an additional premium."

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/insurance/student-athlete-insurance-programs

That doesn't include other policies any player can obtain on their own.

http://www.espn.com/college-footbal...l-insurance-policies-big-complicated-business

https://www.google.com/amp/www.al.com/articles/4826454/are_you_in_good_hands.amp

"Private insurers offer an alternative to players who don't qualify for the NCAA program -- football players who aren't projected in the top three rounds, for instance -- or who want more coverage than the NCAA offers.

Lerner, whose clients have included Matthew Stafford, Jermaine Gresham, Patrick Robinson and Terrence Cody, said there are advantages to going with a private agency.

"Most of the guys want to have somebody who is going to talk to them, talk to their mom, talk to their coach," he said. "They don't have to do the legwork. The NCAA doesn't have insurance agents like me."

Like the NCAA program, the amount of coverage a player can get depends upon his draft projection, with the average policy running about $2 million. The largest policy Lerner has written has been for $10 million for a basketball player. While the NCAA uses professional scouting services, some private agents handle the projections themselves.

"We track these kids; we chart them. It's basically almost like being a scout," Lerner said. "I have to be able to validate that number to the insurance agency."

The premiums through a private agency can run higher -- about $10,000 a year per $1 million of coverage for football players, according to Lerner. Athletes can take out loans to purchase coverage from private insurers without threatening their college eligibility as long as they are not given special treatment by the bank, Sheely said.

The cost of premiums -- and the fact that the insurance only pays out in cases of career-ending injuries -- has scared off some players, including Auburn offensive tackle Lee Ziemba.

"The premiums are extremely high," Ziemba said. "The thing I saw about it is it only covers you for an injury where you can't play the game anymore -- not where you tear your ACL and you're not the same player you were before. You can't be able to play, ever. So I put my trust in the Lord and whatever He sees fit. If something bad happens, He's going to take care of me."

The NCAA and private insurers include a waiting period of six months to a year for rehabilitation efforts before claimants are eligible for a payout. Sheely said the NCAA has had "a handful" of payouts over the years, while Lerner has had just two -- a hockey player and former Florida defensive lineman Ed Chester, who collected on a $1 million policy in 1998 after multiple surgeries couldn't repair a severe knee injury well enough for him to play again.

"If a player can make his living playing professional sports, he's going to make more than he can collect on this policy," Lerner said. "We set it up that way so they still have the incentive to play."

After hearing stories such as Chester's, many athletes consider insurance a no-brainer these days. Lerner estimated that practically every player taken in the first five rounds of the NFL draft and both rounds of the NBA draft this year was insured.

"It wasn't a difficult decision. I believe it was a smart decision," said LSU's Peterson, who also took advantage of the NCAA program. "With so many high-profile guys, you have so much to lose. To have that so you know you have something where you can be stable after football, it's the right thing to do."
 
  • Like
Reactions: soonerfastnloud
http://www.si.com/college-football/2016/01/18/why-loss-value-insurance-policies-becoming-more-common

In the hours before the Fiesta Bowl in 2003, McGahee purchased a $2.5 million policy that he would collect only if he suffered an injury that kept him from ever playing professional football. Smith, on the other hand, has a policy that not only will pay if he never plays again but also will pay a reported $5 million if he drops out of the first round of the NFL draft.

Keith Lerner, who wrote that policy for McGahee, said the industry has changed dramatically in the past three years as more players have opted for the loss-of-value insurance and more schools have been willing to cover the premiums. In the next few weeks, Lerner and his son David will leave the Gainesville, Fla., office of Total Planning Sports Services and visit schools to discuss insurance options with players entering a draft-eligible year. Because the world has changed in several ways, those players have more options then they used to.
 
So you don't care, but then you do care? You are now riding the fence, my friend...
My opinion on this has zero to do with players being able to form unions. Once they can be considered employees of the university, then they can eventually demand wages. I don't think the university should be financially responsible for paying players.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Huntin Hard
I addressed this already, but here is what he could have had...

"
Men’s Basketball $10 million

Football $10 million

Baseball $5 million

Men’s Ice Hockey $3 million

Women’s Basketball $250,000

*Exceptional Student-Athletes in other sports not listed above, who have demonstrated a strong likelihood of a professional career in their sport, may be eligible for coverage under the ESDI Program, and can be reviewed on a case by case basis.

In addition, an accidental death (AD) only benefit is included with the PTD coverage. The AD benefit will match the amount of the premium on the coverage. Additional accidental death (AD) coverage is available up to the maximum PTD amount, for an additional premium."

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/insurance/student-athlete-insurance-programs

That doesn't include other policies any player can obtain on their own.

http://www.espn.com/college-footbal...l-insurance-policies-big-complicated-business

https://www.google.com/amp/www.al.com/articles/4826454/are_you_in_good_hands.amp

"Private insurers offer an alternative to players who don't qualify for the NCAA program -- football players who aren't projected in the top three rounds, for instance -- or who want more coverage than the NCAA offers.

Lerner, whose clients have included Matthew Stafford, Jermaine Gresham, Patrick Robinson and Terrence Cody, said there are advantages to going with a private agency.

"Most of the guys want to have somebody who is going to talk to them, talk to their mom, talk to their coach," he said. "They don't have to do the legwork. The NCAA doesn't have insurance agents like me."

Like the NCAA program, the amount of coverage a player can get depends upon his draft projection, with the average policy running about $2 million. The largest policy Lerner has written has been for $10 million for a basketball player. While the NCAA uses professional scouting services, some private agents handle the projections themselves.

"We track these kids; we chart them. It's basically almost like being a scout," Lerner said. "I have to be able to validate that number to the insurance agency."

The premiums through a private agency can run higher -- about $10,000 a year per $1 million of coverage for football players, according to Lerner. Athletes can take out loans to purchase coverage from private insurers without threatening their college eligibility as long as they are not given special treatment by the bank, Sheely said.

The cost of premiums -- and the fact that the insurance only pays out in cases of career-ending injuries -- has scared off some players, including Auburn offensive tackle Lee Ziemba.

"The premiums are extremely high," Ziemba said. "The thing I saw about it is it only covers you for an injury where you can't play the game anymore -- not where you tear your ACL and you're not the same player you were before. You can't be able to play, ever. So I put my trust in the Lord and whatever He sees fit. If something bad happens, He's going to take care of me."

The NCAA and private insurers include a waiting period of six months to a year for rehabilitation efforts before claimants are eligible for a payout. Sheely said the NCAA has had "a handful" of payouts over the years, while Lerner has had just two -- a hockey player and former Florida defensive lineman Ed Chester, who collected on a $1 million policy in 1998 after multiple surgeries couldn't repair a severe knee injury well enough for him to play again.

"If a player can make his living playing professional sports, he's going to make more than he can collect on this policy," Lerner said. "We set it up that way so they still have the incentive to play."

After hearing stories such as Chester's, many athletes consider insurance a no-brainer these days. Lerner estimated that practically every player taken in the first five rounds of the NFL draft and both rounds of the NBA draft this year was insured.

"It wasn't a difficult decision. I believe it was a smart decision," said LSU's Peterson, who also took advantage of the NCAA program. "With so many high-profile guys, you have so much to lose. To have that so you know you have something where you can be stable after football, it's the right thing to do."
Here is a great idea, let the kids make money from their own names on the free market so they can afford the premiums for this program. Sadly, this program wouldn't have helped Jason White like tok mentioned and whom you were responding to. Just like the player quoted in the article says, it has to be an injury that prevents you from ever playing.. Tearing and ACL doesn't count since you can still play. So the program sounds kinda hollow to me.
 
My opinion on this has zero to do with players being able to form unions. Once they can be considered employees of the university, then they can eventually demand wages. I don't think the university should be financially responsible for paying players.
Yet the point is, they want to be paid. How does one get paid in Chicago? With a union card. You questioned...

What spoiled athletes?? Where in this thread has there been names thrown around as far as specific athletes screaming and crying about lack of being paid while playing college football??

Now that I have provided the evidence of spoiled athletes, you want to act as if their stance has nothing to do with this... You couldn't care less, yet you do...
 
Sadly, this program wouldn't have helped Jason White like tok mentioned and whom you were responding to. Just like the player quoted in the article says, it has to be an injury that prevents you from ever playing.. Tearing and ACL doesn't count since you can still play. So the program sounds kinda hollow to me.

It doesn't? If you have insurance that doesn't want to pay up, there is this thing called court...

http://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=2131507

Then there is this... It isn't as if Jason White feels he is owed anything, like some here seem to feel...

http://newsok.com/article/5371504

Everything I just described is things I’ve learned from my parents. Dad (Ron) has poured concrete his entire life and, to this day, he doesn’t miss a day of work. Continues to work hard like he always has. Mom (Sue, who died of cancer in 2012) was the same way. The house was always clean, dinner was always on the table, and she worked. Just knowing that you have to have a good work ethic to be successful, I feel like I learned that from my parents. With my mom, just seeing the fight that she had in the last couple of months, really the last year, made me think about other situations that I’ve been through and realized that while my mom was not only a hard worker, she was able to face adversity and continue to move forward. All those things. But one of the most important things I learned during all this was, you can’t take life for granted.
 
Everyone has their opinions on pay to play. But bottomline, the only FACT is that the Universities actually want to pay and many do, and the football players want to be paid. Otherwise there is no need or actual function for the NCAA. This organization only exists to keep payola from happening. ;)
 
Yet the point is, they want to be paid. How does one get paid in Chicago? With a union card. You questioned...

Now that I have provided the evidence of spoiled athletes, you want to act as if their stance has nothing to do with this... You couldn't care less, yet you do...
Of course there are athletes who would like to get money while they are in college. But how does that make them spoiled?? It's only "spoiled" cuz some people think they should be happy with what they are currently getting and they don't deserve anything else. Meanwhile, the gross commercial product of college sports has went from millions, to hundreds of millions, to billions, and now tens of billions. But one thing has remained constant...the players still need to just be satisfied with an education and a field to play on.

And yes...I couldn't care less about players who want to unionize and become employees of the schools. Screw that. Not sure how you are confusing that with my stance on letting the players seek their value on the free market while in college. That has zero to do with the university.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Huntin Hard
It doesn't? If you have insurance that doesn't want to pay up, there is this thing called court...

http://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=2131507

Then there is this... It isn't as if Jason White feels he is owed anything, like some here seem to feel...

http://newsok.com/article/5371504

Everything I just described is things I’ve learned from my parents. Dad (Ron) has poured concrete his entire life and, to this day, he doesn’t miss a day of work. Continues to work hard like he always has. Mom (Sue, who died of cancer in 2012) was the same way. The house was always clean, dinner was always on the table, and she worked. Just knowing that you have to have a good work ethic to be successful, I feel like I learned that from my parents. With my mom, just seeing the fight that she had in the last couple of months, really the last year, made me think about other situations that I’ve been through and realized that while my mom was not only a hard worker, she was able to face adversity and continue to move forward. All those things. But one of the most important things I learned during all this was, you can’t take life for granted.
When did I say Jason White was "owed" anything?? I'm saying while they are college athletes they should be able to profit off their own names just like the rest of this country gets to do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Huntin Hard
Of course there are athletes who would like to get money while they are in college. But how does that make them spoiled?? It's only "spoiled" cuz some people think they should be happy with what they are currently getting and they don't deserve anything else. Meanwhile, the gross commercial product of college sports has went from millions, to hundreds of millions, to billions, and now tens of billions. But one thing has remained constant...the players still need to just be satisfied with an education and a field to play on.

And yes...I couldn't care less about players who want to unionize and become employees of the schools. Screw that. Not sure how you are confusing that with my stance on letting the players seek their value on the free market while in college. That has zero to do with the university.
http://undergradaid.northwestern.ed...financial-eligibility/cost-of-attendance.html

$70,000.00+ per year at Northwestern and all the food they can eat, along with that "incidental" money of $4,000.00 a year comes to how much?

Even with a conservative figure of $1,000.00 worth of food...

$300,000.00 in 4 years...
 
When did I say Jason White was "owed" anything?? I'm saying while they are college athletes they should be able to profit off their own names just like the rest of this country gets to do.

Really? If I choose to work for a company that designs guidance systems like my dad did, do I get the patent rights, or does LTV Vought?

Oh, damn, you work for us. We own that.

Just like when one of my guys drops a tree on a roof, I own that. Sure, I might fire the guy for being an idiot, but who's insurance pays that bill? Who pays the insurance company? Me. Who signs the paychecks? Me. Who owns everything they do, good or bad, in a corporation? The corporation.

So, student athletes sign a deal. If they don't like the deal, don't sign it. Oh, but 18-20 yr olds sign great deals all of the time, right?
 
http://undergradaid.northwestern.ed...financial-eligibility/cost-of-attendance.html

$70,000.00+ per year at Northwestern and all the food they can eat, along with that "incidental" money of $4,000.00 a year comes to how much?

Even with a conservative figure of $1,000.00 worth of food...

$300,000.00 in 4 years...
So that means they shouldn't be able to earn one cent more during their college careers since in your opinion they should just be happy with that and not get any more? Because I'm sure you can come up with figures for every single university. If the university wants to accept that level of financial responsibility when they offer a high school kid a scholarship to play football, then that's great. But why should that be the "end all be all" in terms of what kind of compensating a player can find during their college careers?? Especially when looking for outside sources that doesn't affect the university whatsoever?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Huntin Hard
Really? If I choose to work for a company that designs guidance systems like my dad did, do I get the patent rights, or does LTV Vought?

Oh, damn, you work for us. We own that.

Just like when one of my guys drops a tree on a roof, I own that. Sure, I might fire the guy for being an idiot, but who's insurance pays that bill? Who pays the insurance company? Me. Who signs the paychecks? Me. Who owns everything they do, good or bad, in a corporation? The corporation.

So, student athletes sign a deal. If they don't like the deal, don't sign it. Oh, but 18-20 yr olds sign great deals all of the time, right?
Okay so then if you are making this comparison to college athletes, then you are simply making the argument that the university should be paying them since by your definition they are employees right?? I mean if the university "owns them", then hey why not make the move to start paying them with an actual paycheck instead of just a list of benefits.

I mean I see what you are saying here. But the NCAA worked hard when they came up with the "student-athlete" defense to prevent college athletes from being considered employees. So your examples don't apply here since college athletes are not employees of companies.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Huntin Hard
So that means they shouldn't be able to earn one cent more during their college careers since in your opinion they should just be happy with that and not get any more? Because I'm sure you can come up with figures for every single university. If the university wants to accept that level of financial responsibility when they offer a high school kid a scholarship to play football, then that's great. But why should that be the "end all be all" in terms of what kind of compensating a player can find during their college careers?? Especially when looking for outside sources that doesn't affect the university whatsoever?
How do you know it doesn't affect that university? So, Phil Knight has a real need for Oregon to win it all, but this one team stands in the way down in Los Angeles... he decides to give an endorsement of $1,000,000.00 to a couple of key players...

Oh, they wouldn't fix a game for some of that good green stuff, right?
 
Okay so then if you are making this comparison to college athletes, then you are simply making the argument that the university should be paying them since by your definition they are employees right?? I mean if the university "owns them", then hey why not make the move to start paying them with an actual paycheck instead of just a list of benefits.

I mean I see what you are saying here. But the NCAA worked hard when they came up with the "student-athlete" defense to prevent college athletes from being considered employees. So your examples don't apply here since college athletes are not employees of companies.
Sure they do. It is called a contract. I do them all the time. Some with companies, some with individuals, some with estates, and some with local or state entities. A lot of them are bartering deals. I cut down 18 red cedar trees, they are actually Virginian Junipers, for a 20 foot trailer and an old Chevrolet with no engine and four flat tires. I provided the saws, the labor, the gas, the trailers to haul everything off, he got his clearing, and I got a decent used trailer, one project, and enough red cedar to build a room.

Can I interest you in a nice coffin?
 
How do you know it doesn't affect that university? So, Phil Knight has a real need for Oregon to win it all, but this one team stands in the way down in Los Angeles... he decides to give an endorsement of $1,000,000.00 to a couple of key players...

Oh, they wouldn't fix a game for some of that good green stuff, right?
Well you're right. If money ever starts going more towards players, then that's less for everyone else. So that's true it will affect them. No doubt a great reason to keep the current system in place.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Huntin Hard
Sure they do. It is called a contract. I do them all the time. Some with companies, some with individuals, some with estates, and some with local or state entities. A lot of them are bartering deals. I cut down 18 red cedar trees, they are actually Virginian Junipers, for a 20 foot trailer and an old Chevrolet with no engine and four flat tires. I provided the saws, the labor, the gas, the trailers to haul everything off, he got his clearing, and I got a decent used trailer, one project, and enough red cedar to build a room.

Can I interest you in a nice coffin?
So once again...you are considering college athletes employees. Why are not supporting what the Northwestern Football team was trying to do?? Would you ever work, or offer your employees, only benefits of a job without an actual paycheck? That's ridiculous. Jobs nowadays offer benefits in addition to a paycheck to pay the bills. Especially when billions upon billions are being generated on the backs of the labor that is the foundation of generating that money.

There is no doubt the current "contract" in the LOI that players sign is structured to support the current system. My premise is the structure needs to change to allow players to profit from their own names and likenesses outside of the university.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Huntin Hard
Would you ever work, or offer your employees, only benefits of a job without an actual paycheck? That's ridiculous.
I just gave you the example. I barter. The university does the same thing. They trade an education, tuition, housing, etc., for the possible benefits of one's athletic potential. Sometimes it's a good deal, sometimes it's not.

Oh, but I got paid with a trailer, etc., you say? Yep. That isn't a paycheck. It's a trailer, and an old car, and some nice wood...
 
Well you're right. If money ever starts going more towards players, then that's less for everyone else. So that's true it will affect them. No doubt a great reason to keep the current system in place.
Well yeah, and who is signing that paycheck? Who do they "work" for as opposed to who are they "playing" for? Then who's integrity gets questioned when a player has a conflict of interest? The coach? Player? Endorsers?
 
I just gave you the example. I barter. The university does the same thing. They trade an education, tuition, housing, etc., for the possible benefits of one's athletic potential. Sometimes it's a good deal, sometimes it's not.
That's great. I'm not questioning that the University provides something for the players. I don't think the university should be burdened anymore to financially give anything else to the players. That has zero to do with whether the players can enter into endorsement deals of their own making.
Cuz you're right. Sometimes it's a good deal, sometimes it's not. Not all college players are worth the same. I know some hate to hear that, but it's true. Some players absolutely have more worth than others. Can all players profit further outside of what the university provides for them? I very much doubt it. But no doubt there are some that could make some bigtime money while in college if they were given the chance. It may actually even help give incentive for kids to stay an extra year or two in college instead of rolling the dice with their future and leaving for the NFL when they aren't truly ready.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Huntin Hard
I don't think the university should be burdened anymore to financially give anything else to the players. That has zero to do with whether the players can enter into endorsement deals of their own making.
Sure it does. I don't want someone that I am providing a scholarship for entering into a contract which I feel is a conflict of interest. Being paid by Nike might be a conflict of interest to any school that has Oregon on the schedule.
 
I remember seeing Jason White with a cast and on crutches, by himself, inside the Blockbuster on 12th and Alameda in Norman the evening of the 2003 Holiday Bowl just before the game. That was one of the saddest things I've ever witnessed.
 
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT