OT: Scary Hypothetical

[fortworth4ou2]

I've been reading this board for years and know many posters are gun owners. As some of you know, my son is a police sergeant and supervises/investigates all manner of criminal activity. He shares his fears with me daily and tells me that in his personal life, he might handle matters far differently than in his professional walk.

This is a professional training scenario that he shared with me which took place recently. Put yourself in place of the homeowner. Information is purposefully limited at this time but I'm interested in how you would process and resolve this specific event.

A family of 5 - husband, wife, and 3 children - were at home asleep. It was 2 a.m. They are awakened by the sound of shattering glass. Someone is breaking in. The husband grabs his gun while mom herds the children into the parents bedroom and dials 911. Dad does not flip on the lights as he cautiously moves down the hallway searching for the room of the break in. In the darkness he sees the silhouette of a person attempting to enter through a living room window and lines the person up in his cross hairs. As your initial reaction, do you:

a. Attempt to reason with the intruder to get him to leave.
b. Run back to the bedroom to get everyone out through a window.
c. Fire away to wing 'em in an attempt to halt his progress.
d. Exercise deadly force.
e. Other

I'll tell you how the conflict was addressed and resolved after some comments. I will say the ending might surprise you. Or, might not.

Boomer Sooner

 

[stuck in del rio]

e. Other. I'm hoping for the inturder's sake the sound of me cocking my 10 gauge shotgun will cause him to cease and desist post haste...if not, then a warning shot within 50 feet of his present location should do the trick.

I'm guessing the ending is something along the lines of a friend forgot his car keys and was attempting to retrieve them without waking the owners, or something along those lines.

 

[Soonersincefitty]

Well, a similar scenario happened to me in 2006.
I'll pick A, which is what I did. I, in an unwavering, loud voice told the two perps I had a gun and would use it if they advanced any further.
It worked. They ran off and all I had to do was some major door repair.

Funny aside, the investigating Tulsa PD officer was seemingly disappointed that I didn't shoot them. In fact his words were, "You could have had a freebie".

 

[BillyRay]

I'll go with A. I'm not one of those who relish in the thought of blowing someone away. One of the reasons I use a pump shotgun for the house. Not a soul on the planet that doesn't know what the sound of a shotgun racking is, and that sound/action alone may be enough to get the person to haul ass and not put me in the position of having to shoot someone.

 

[veritas59]

The first thing you HAVE to do is identify the silhouette as a true threat.

 

[Soonersincefitty]

That's sadly so true V.
A long time ago a fellow inadvertently shot and killed his daughter when she, thinking he wasn't home, came by to pick up some mail that hadn't been forwarded to her new address.
No do overs when firearms are involved.

 

[CTOkie]

I know a woman who approached the front door where an intruder had broken the lock and was trying to break the chain....all she did was activate her husband's bolt action rifle within a few feet of the door and the bastard fled. She told me that had he broken the chain and stepped in she would have shot to kill. She was with two small children that night. Her husband was on a business trip. There is no doubt in my mind that she would have done whatever was necessary to protect her family.

As for what I would do in such a situation: not sure....it's one of those situations where the lives of me and my wife could be threatened or it could be just a 16 year kid trying to steal something. One thing for sure, I would let him know I had a gun while my wife dialed 911. If he (or they) approached me then I would shoot. After the Cheshire home invasion (an event that happened in 2007, where a woman and her two daughters were raped, strangled and burned, 40 minutes from where I live), my tolerance level for such a threat is zero, so out of fear and anger, I might be more inclined to shoot first and worry about the legal consequences later.

 

[fortworth4ou2]

The first thing you HAVE to do is identify the silhouette as a true threat.

Sorry V. This event took place in Texas.

In Texas, the Castle Doctrine protects the homeowner in situations where the intruder is in the process of breaking into a home. Deadly force can be used by the homeowner without warning the intruder.

Boomer Sooner

 

[CTOkie]

A Houston police officer told me that 30 years ago.....forced entry means open season on intruders.

 

[fortworth4ou2]

e. Other. I'm hoping for the inturder's sake the sound of me cocking my 10 gauge shotgun will cause him to cease and desist post haste...if not, then a warning shot within 50 feet of his present location should do the trick.

I'm guessing the ending is something along the lines of a friend forgot his car keys and was attempting to retrieve them without waking the owners, or something along those lines.

You're on the right track Stuck regarding how this situation started.

Boomer Sooner

 

[fortworth4ou2]

A Houston police officer told me that 30 years ago.....forced entry means open season on intruders.

That is pretty much the law CT in Texas.

Boomer Sooner

 

[Dastardly Deed]

Just saw a movie with this scenario and the homeowner killed the intruder. Then he had to contend with the burglar's family--some mean rednecks--who vowed revenge. Cocking a shotgun and shouting a warning will almost always frighten away any intruder not on ecstasy.

 

[fortworth4ou2]

Just saw a movie with this scenario and the homeowner killed the intruder. Then he had to contend with the burglar's family--some mean rednecks--who vowed revenge. Cocking a shotgun and shouting a warning will almost always frighten away any intruder not on ecstasy.

Very insightful DD.

Boomer Sooner

 

[AbsoluteZer0]

I would choose D. I've already pre-warned the kids (who are older now and not living at home) that sneaking out and trying to get back in could well be a fatal mistake that we would all have to live with. I had one sneak out once but he never tried coming back in (he was caught anyway).

It would be a death sentence to break a window or door at my house in the middle of the night I'm afraid. If I just heard noises, I would probably go with the other noted option which is to rack the 12 gauge and yell YOLO.

 

[Schoonerman]

A. Sort of. "Reason with the intruder?" Not likely, but let 'em know you're packing heat and that the police have been called. If they insist on entering after that point, fire away if you own a gun.

 

[veritas59]

Sorry V. This event took place in Texas.

In Texas, the Castle Doctrine protects the homeowner in situations where the intruder is in the process of breaking into a home. Deadly force can be used by the homeowner without warning the intruder.

Boomer Sooner

I understand. Same here in Kansas. Regardless, I still want to make sure before I use deadly force.... I don't want a legally justified shooting of a friend or family member.... A shout, get on the floor, something like that. If it's someone you know, they'll say "Mike, it's me (fill in the name)" if not, then you know you've got a bad guy. At that point, what he does will determine whether or not he's still breathing in a few seconds.

 

[fortworth4ou2]

I understand. Same here in Kansas. Regardless, I still want to make sure before I use deadly force.... I don't want a legally justified shooting of a friend or family member.... A shout, get on the floor, something like that. If it's someone you know, they'll say "Mike, it's me (fill in the name)" if not, then you know you've got a bad guy. At that point, what he does will determine whether or not he's still breathing in a few seconds.

I like the way you think V. We're getting closer to the actual resolution.

Boomer Sooner

 

[Drewcristo78]

My dogs would give the situation away. Also part of gun safety would be explaining the consequences that could happen if you break into the house.

 

[sybarite]

If I had a gun in my hand, I would probably fire a warning shot into the air. The wall or ceiling might have a hole, but it gives a firm message. I want the intruder to leave, and he probably would if there were an obvious threat.

In Texas, the law is not as clear as you might think. There have been at least three cases in the past twenty years in which armed men broke into someone's home in the middle of the night with the family sleeping. In each case, the owner did awaken and fired a shot into the air, injuring nobody. In each case, he was prosecuted for illegal discharge of a firearm. In one case, he was charged with attempted murder.

The reason: in each case, the intruders were undercover narcotics officers. In each case, they had raided the wrong house. In one case, they were actually on the right street, but in the wrong suburb of Dallas. They did not identify themselves until after shots had been fired by the officers and the owner. They screwed up, but they actually charged a DeSoto man with attempted murder. I don't know the final resolution. The newspapers did roast the officers for being so absurd.

 

[AbsoluteZer0]

If I had a gun in my hand, I would probably fire a warning shot into the air. The wall or ceiling might have a hole, but it gives a firm message. I want the intruder to leave, and he probably would if there were an obvious threat.

In Texas, the law is not as clear as you might think. There have been at least three cases in the past twenty years in which armed men broke into someone's home in the middle of the night with the family sleeping. In each case, the owner did awaken and fired a shot into the air, injuring nobody. In each case, he was prosecuted for illegal discharge of a firearm. In one case, he was charged with attempted murder.

The reason: in each case, the intruders were undercover narcotics officers. In each case, they had raided the wrong house. In one case, they were actually on the right street, but in the wrong suburb of Dallas. They did not identify themselves until after shots had been fired by the officers and the owner. They screwed up, but they actually charged a DeSoto man with attempted murder. I don't know the final resolution. The newspapers did roast the officers for being so absurd.

Charge me with intentional homicide because that is what it would be. in the military we call that friendly fire because it wasn't supposed to happen like that. Apparently these cops are special and because they messed up they should charge the innocent person with the crime? The officers who lived should be charged with breaking and entering in my estimate and are fortunate to be alive. If they killed someone in the wrong house, then they should be up for murder 1.

 

[fortworth4ou2]

There may be some special grievous circumstances Sybarite that could lead to a charge being filed. But, no conviction would've likely occurred. The Castle Doctrine, as studied by my son and I for his Sergeant's exam, would have exonerated the homeowner from practically any criminal liability. As Governor, Abbott is on board with this Doctrine.

Anyone can be CHARGED with a crime. Conviction is another matter.

You are, however, getting closer to the scenario's resolution detail.

Boomer Sooner

 

[Soonersincefitty]

You big tease.

 

[fortworth4ou2]

You're a good man fitty. In fact, many here would've shown significant restraint based on their responses and should be applauded. Don't know that I would've done similarly as you - and as most suggested - when the real-time adrenaline and fear kicked in. I hope that I would.

The first responders - and later, my son - were congratulatory toward the homeowner. When interviewed, the neighbors, for the most part, were split almost evenly between options A and D.

I'll end the "tease" shortly. I promise. The case circumstances were most interesting - at least to me.

Boomer Sooner

 

[barkingwater2000]

C. I would want to halt his progress until the cops arrived. I definitely wouldn't try and reason with anyone so they can possibly escape and do that to someone else. However, if I was able to see that that were armed, I'm afraid I'd have no choice but to shoot to kill.

 

[WhyNotaSooner]

I don't believe that everyone would react to the same. Although you gave several responses to select, based on our household situation, I'm going with D if the intruder is already in the house, and C if they have not made it in completely. I've heard that one should go back to the family as opposed going down a dark hall.

I selected my choices based on the following;
1. We have dogs.Their presence would have most likely scared away anyone that would be scared away.
2. We live alone. There are no kids to be concerned with.
3. Probably the most important decision maker for me... we live in Houston. Violent crimes occur on a daily basis in all parts to the city including some very nice neighborhoods.

Again, I recognize that others may select a different option. And I wish us all the best if we are ever faced in that situation.

 

[Section22Sooner]

D.

When that gun is drawn and that trigger is pulled, it is to kill.

 

[Soonersincefitty]

Well, good luck with that.
I could have done it, twice, without charges being filed.

It is much harder to drop hammer on someone than you think.

 

[AbsoluteZer0]

It's not that hard to me (been there before), you just need to get your mind right. You neither derive pleasure nor pain/guilt from the action, it is just necessary to preserve your way of life. You didn't put yourself in this position, the action was chosen for you by what the other person decided to do. You can either let their actions determine your (or your families) future or take the matter in your own hands.

Personally, I like to be in charge of my own destiny. If I choose to take a risk, I own the consequences. If someone else chooses to take the risk, they will own them.

 

[Soonersincefitty]

Thanks Ft. Worth.
I've been shooting guns since I was 7 or 8. In fact I had to fake like I didn't know any thing about guns when Dad took me out that 'first time' with a single shot 22 rifle when I was 10.
I was a rascal back then, but grew out of it...

 

[veritas59]

Thanks Ft. Worth.
I've been shooting guns since I was 7 or 8. In fact I had to fake like I didn't know any thing about guns when Dad took me out that 'first time' with a single shot 22 rifle when I was 10.
I was a rascal back then, but grew out of it...

Not!

 

[Soonersincefitty]

I get what you're saying zero.
Had those idiots come on in after the warning, it would have been on then.
Glock model 22, spewing forth 16 rounds of 40 cal.

"Clean up on SSF entranceway".

 

[K2C Sooner]

Thanks Ft. Worth.
I've been shooting guns since I was 7 or 8. In fact I had to fake like I didn't know any thing about guns when Dad took me out that 'first time' with a single shot 22 rifle when I was 10.
I was a rascal back then, but grew out of it...

 

[Soonersincefitty]

Ah, BBs.
Reminds me of the BB machine gun I had in the 80s.
No really, true story.
In the little ads they had in Soldier of Fortune magazine, you could order this gun that was powered with automotive freon 12.
Fill up the little tank with BBs and go off!
Of course the velocity was like 15 ft. per second, close quarters use only.

 

[fortworth4ou2]

OK, I'll end the suspense.

Every situation is unique and many might've taken a different option than the one chosen. The homeowner had every "right" to end the life of the perp. But, in this scenario, a true tragedy was averted. A scary situation ended relatively harmless.

The stranger breaking into the home had been out earlier drinking with a friend and he was pretty well sloshed. His friend dropped him off at the home and left as the man approached the front door. According to the police report, he had his own house key and attempted to unlock the door which was unsuccessful after several attempts. Not wanting to disturb his sister and her children by banging on the door - he also didn't want them to see him in such a state - he decided to punch out the window near the door and enter. Nice rationale. There were no dogs in the home and no alarm system.

It was this noise that awakened the occupants as well as close by neighbors. It wasn't just the sound of breaking glass that neighbors heard. When he couldn't get in with his key, he began shouting obscenities (disorderly conduct).

As he was halfway through the window (B & E), the homeowner was ready to drop him, if necessary, and allowed him to completely fall into his living room. The homeowner told the officers that he thought about discharging his weapon but he couldn't...at least, yet.

He flipped on the light, kept his weapon on the intruder, and told him to stay down or he would shoot. He noticed the intruder was totally disoriented and seemed confused as to the homeowner's commands. But, he did comply and officers arrived in quick fashion.

As it turned out, the intruder was the brother of the homeowners neighbor and had just recently moved back into the area. He had only been to his sister's house a time or two and had just started living with her. His key didn't work as he was using it on the wrong house.

The homeowner had every right to use whatever force he deemed sufficient. But, he couldn't bring himself to fire away as the intruder was compliant. Good thing. As disoriented and confused as the intruder was, he was most fortunate to have obeyed the command whether he knew what he was doing or not.

A life - an apparent innocent life - was spared that night. Even his own sister told officers that she would've used deadly force if someone broke into her home.

Made for an interesting and lively shift roll call the next day.

Boomer Sooner

 

[Soonersincefitty]

I had a feeling it was something like that.

There are those unsophisticated troglodytes out there, (not me of course) that would submit that he should have been plugged for being a consummate dumb ass.

In hindsight, fate favored him. Perhaps a teachable moment.

 

[fortworth4ou2]

Could've been, fitty, a similar repeat as the situation you mentioned in your 2nd response above. Fate indeed...

Boomer Sooner

 

[barkingwater2000]

OK, I'll end the suspense.

Every situation is unique and many might've taken a different option than the one chosen. The homeowner had every "right" to end the life of the perp. But, in this scenario, a true tragedy was averted. A scary situation ended relatively harmless.

The stranger breaking into the home had been out earlier drinking with a friend and he was pretty well sloshed. His friend dropped him off at the home and left as the man approached the front door. According to the police report, he had his own house key and attempted to unlock the door which was unsuccessful after several attempts. Not wanting to disturb his sister and her children by banging on the door - he also didn't want them to see him in such a state - he decided to punch out the window near the door and enter. Nice rationale. There were no dogs in the home and no alarm system.

It was this noise that awakened the occupants as well as close by neighbors. It wasn't just the sound of breaking glass that neighbors heard. When he couldn't get in with his key, he began shouting obscenities (disorderly conduct).

As he was halfway through the window (B & E), the homeowner was ready to drop him, if necessary, and allowed him to completely fall into his living room. The homeowner told the officers that he thought about discharging his weapon but he couldn't...at least, yet.

He flipped on the light, kept his weapon on the intruder, and told him to stay down or he would shoot. He noticed the intruder was totally disoriented and seemed confused as to the homeowner's commands. But, he did comply and officers arrived in quick fashion.

As it turned out, the intruder was the brother of the homeowners neighbor and had just recently moved back into the area. He had only been to his sister's house a time or two and had just started living with her. His key didn't work as he was using it on the wrong house.

The homeowner had every right to use whatever force he deemed sufficient. But, he couldn't bring himself to fire away as the intruder was compliant. Good thing. As disoriented and confused as the intruder was, he was most fortunate to have obeyed the command whether he knew what he was doing or not.

A life - an apparent innocent life - was spared that night. Even his own sister told officers that she would've used deadly force if someone broke into her home.

Made for an interesting and lively shift roll call the next day.

Boomer Sooner

This scenario may have been partially based on the real life situation of a teen that accidentally went to the wrong house while he was intoxicated and the home owner shot and killed him. I saw this on a Dateline time of program.

 

[fortworth4ou2]

This scenario may have been partially based on the real life situation of a teen that accidentally went to the wrong house while he was intoxicated and the home owner shot and killed him. I saw this on a Dateline time of program.

I'm sure BW it happens more than we know. At least the close calls. Situations were totally unrelated and the Fort Worth case was real.

Boomer Sooner

 

[Section22Sooner]

Ah, BBs.
Reminds me of the BB machine gun I had in the 80s.
No really, true story.
In the little ads they had in Soldier of Fortune magazine, you could order this gun that was powered with automotive freon 12.
Fill up the little tank with BBs and go off!
Of course the velocity was like 15 ft. per second, close quarters use only.

I had one of those plastic Larc M19's. It was pretty cool and I'm sure it was far better than 15ft/sec. It would make a pile of sand out of a bottle at about 40 ft. (video below shows aluminum cans getting it). It shot 3000 BB's per minute, so long as the Freon can was still warm. When Larc sold you the gun, they warned you that your name and gun serial number were on file. They gave you a form to turn in when you sold it to someone else.

 

[Scottsdale.Sooner]

I have a S&W Automatic 45 Cal tucked very conveniently near the head of my bed. It has a blinder light attached to it that has a charge button very near the safety of the gun. It is beyond bright. I would flash blind him then give him quick and assertive instructions. Carefully keep my eye on him to determine his intentions and react accordingly. But then again I was in law enforcement for 5 years.