I have no dog in this hunt: what do you all think of Houston firing their coach ? What team(s) cheat like this regularly without getting caught yet ? Ramifications for the Stros and baseball in general ?
tia
tia
O/T for all the baseball lovers
- Thread starter iasooner1
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I agree with it. Stealing signs "naturally" is an accepted part of the game. Using technology to gain a substantial advantage, no bueno. I believe MLB commissioner warned teams a couple of years ago that if they used technology to cheat, the hammer would come down.
Most everybody in baseball, who visited Houston, knew they were doing it.
If you're given a rule in any sport, where the specific illegal task is listed and the accompanying penalty is threatened, then if you're going to cheat, you'd better not wink while your doing it.
The Astros were signalling offspeed pitches by banging on the garbage can in their dugout. They were treating the admonition to not cheat electronically, like a speed limit on the turnpike. The commissioners office considered it more like stealing millions of dollars.
They got caught, without really trying to hide the cheating.
If you're given a rule in any sport, where the specific illegal task is listed and the accompanying penalty is threatened, then if you're going to cheat, you'd better not wink while your doing it.
The Astros were signalling offspeed pitches by banging on the garbage can in their dugout. They were treating the admonition to not cheat electronically, like a speed limit on the turnpike. The commissioners office considered it more like stealing millions of dollars.
They got caught, without really trying to hide the cheating.
I don’t know if the commissioner has the ability or sack to do either of those but some kind of punishment must be levied
I know there are "unwritten rules" and some degree of "bending the rules" in almost every sport, but what the Astros did was way over the line.
I think firings and suspensions to those who orchestrated the cheating is warranted and the Astros should have to vacate their title. The players were in on it too, so firing them is not an option, but taking their title and rings away is also warranted.
I think firings and suspensions to those who orchestrated the cheating is warranted and the Astros should have to vacate their title. The players were in on it too, so firing them is not an option, but taking their title and rings away is also warranted.
A little bit of defending the Astros, but primarily information.
In 2017, MLB rules stated that it was against the rules to relay stolen signals to batters electronically.
Stealing signs in baseball, even today, is not against the rules.
The rules in 2017 did NOT state that it was against rules to steal the signs electronically - specifically, it was against the rules to relay the signals electronically.
I know that is splitting hairs, but this will give clarification to my point:
It was learned in the 2017 season that the Astros, in particular, and probably several teams were using the cameras and monitors to steal the signs.
Heard about the trash can banging? This was the legal, non-electronic method of relaying the signals to their batters.
It has since been determined that the stealing and relaying of stolen signs gave very little, if any, advantage to the batters.
So much so, that the Astros stopped the practice early in the 2018 season.
Obviously, they didn't stop because of the commissioner's mandate. They had already ignored that.
They stopped the practice, because there was no advantage gained from the practice.
The reason AJ Hinch, Jeff Lohnow and Alex Cora are drawing unemployment today is, the commissioner told the Astros on one occasion and MLB as a whole on another occasion to cease and desist with using the cameras to steal the signs. The Astros did not heed the orders from the commissioner in Sept 2017, and therefore, the punishment handed out this week.
Had they stopped in September, this would be a dead issue.
Alex Cora lost his job because he took the practice from the Astros to the Red Sox when he was named manager of the Sox for the 2018 season.
I'm not bashing the commissioner over the deal, It is his job to maintain the integrity of his sport.
The Astros ignored his directive and they paid the price.
For the reasons above, I am surprised at the severity of the punishment.
But, in evaluating it for a few days, I believe the deal on punishment was provided to the owner a few days before the announcement.
That is borne out by Mr. Crane firing Hinch and Luhnow within an hour of MLB's decision.
Mr Crane is a very successful businessman. He knows better than to make a knee-jerk decision on matters as important as this.
I believe he not only had a couple of days to digest it, I also believe the punishment doled out was "light" based on the commissioner having an agreement that the Astros would terminate both men. Mr. Crane had a couple of days to peruse it and agreed.
MLB "suspending" them, made it simple for Mr Crane to terminate them.
At the very least, he would have slept on the decision overnight, if he was not aware of it ahead of time.
The $5 Million is the max fine the commissioner was allowed to hand out. This is a drop in the bucket to these billionaires and would have been imposed under any circumstances.
If Crane had not agreed to the deal, I believe it would have been much worse. Maybe 2-3 years suspensions, maybe players suspended, maybe many more draft picks lost, etc.
In 2017, MLB rules stated that it was against the rules to relay stolen signals to batters electronically.
Stealing signs in baseball, even today, is not against the rules.
The rules in 2017 did NOT state that it was against rules to steal the signs electronically - specifically, it was against the rules to relay the signals electronically.
I know that is splitting hairs, but this will give clarification to my point:
It was learned in the 2017 season that the Astros, in particular, and probably several teams were using the cameras and monitors to steal the signs.
Heard about the trash can banging? This was the legal, non-electronic method of relaying the signals to their batters.
It has since been determined that the stealing and relaying of stolen signs gave very little, if any, advantage to the batters.
So much so, that the Astros stopped the practice early in the 2018 season.
Obviously, they didn't stop because of the commissioner's mandate. They had already ignored that.
They stopped the practice, because there was no advantage gained from the practice.
The reason AJ Hinch, Jeff Lohnow and Alex Cora are drawing unemployment today is, the commissioner told the Astros on one occasion and MLB as a whole on another occasion to cease and desist with using the cameras to steal the signs. The Astros did not heed the orders from the commissioner in Sept 2017, and therefore, the punishment handed out this week.
Had they stopped in September, this would be a dead issue.
Alex Cora lost his job because he took the practice from the Astros to the Red Sox when he was named manager of the Sox for the 2018 season.
I'm not bashing the commissioner over the deal, It is his job to maintain the integrity of his sport.
The Astros ignored his directive and they paid the price.
For the reasons above, I am surprised at the severity of the punishment.
But, in evaluating it for a few days, I believe the deal on punishment was provided to the owner a few days before the announcement.
That is borne out by Mr. Crane firing Hinch and Luhnow within an hour of MLB's decision.
Mr Crane is a very successful businessman. He knows better than to make a knee-jerk decision on matters as important as this.
I believe he not only had a couple of days to digest it, I also believe the punishment doled out was "light" based on the commissioner having an agreement that the Astros would terminate both men. Mr. Crane had a couple of days to peruse it and agreed.
MLB "suspending" them, made it simple for Mr Crane to terminate them.
At the very least, he would have slept on the decision overnight, if he was not aware of it ahead of time.
The $5 Million is the max fine the commissioner was allowed to hand out. This is a drop in the bucket to these billionaires and would have been imposed under any circumstances.
If Crane had not agreed to the deal, I believe it would have been much worse. Maybe 2-3 years suspensions, maybe players suspended, maybe many more draft picks lost, etc.
I’ve been pretty quite about it as I’ve tried to wrap my head around it. Living in Houston the Astros dear to me & I’ve been attending games since before AJ & Luhnow we’re even born. I feel that like every fan out there in that none of us have control on what our teams do or don’t do. But my take...
1. The cause & effect doesn’t really matter. It’s the after effects that are real.
2. Rival fans are looking to use this situation to justify the short comings of their team’s failure(s).
3. In 2021, cheating will occur. You & I may not see it, hear about it, or recognize it, but it’s there. Well except Plaino. He recognized it in 2017 but kept it to himself. Any team that is on the verge of making a deep run in the playoffs or World Series are and will be looking for any and all edges to win. 24 teams won’t need a double to make a difference, but 6 will. And they’ll do everything possible to get it. That’s baseball. Has been forever. Sign stealing has been around since the 1800’s.
4. It was the MLB that brought the video technology into the game w instant replay, into the clubhouse, and dug out. The players will use it to their advantage.
5. There are players on the Astros that did not cheat. Unfortunately they are now guilty by association & the ignorance of going along w/ players code. They followed instead of leading. They’re now tainted accordingly. They’ll pay the price. Such as the fake Twitter account claiming Altuve wore a buzzer. That’s fall out and part of the cleansing.
6. I’m probably rare in this spectrum of Astro fans but I’m one that believes the Astro brand is deeply tainted. It’ll take many years to get this behind them and repair their image. If ever. Because of this I would begin immediately to wash away the stinch and trade away and/or not renew the contracts of each player on the 2017 WS team.
7. As an Astro fan, I have watched hundreds of coaches & players come and go. Today’s players, Mgr & GM has taken from me and all life long fans my team. A team that I was once proud of. There will be a better day in the future, but right now it’s time to move from these players.
Agee or disagree. I don’t even care.
1. The cause & effect doesn’t really matter. It’s the after effects that are real.
2. Rival fans are looking to use this situation to justify the short comings of their team’s failure(s).
3. In 2021, cheating will occur. You & I may not see it, hear about it, or recognize it, but it’s there. Well except Plaino. He recognized it in 2017 but kept it to himself. Any team that is on the verge of making a deep run in the playoffs or World Series are and will be looking for any and all edges to win. 24 teams won’t need a double to make a difference, but 6 will. And they’ll do everything possible to get it. That’s baseball. Has been forever. Sign stealing has been around since the 1800’s.
4. It was the MLB that brought the video technology into the game w instant replay, into the clubhouse, and dug out. The players will use it to their advantage.
5. There are players on the Astros that did not cheat. Unfortunately they are now guilty by association & the ignorance of going along w/ players code. They followed instead of leading. They’re now tainted accordingly. They’ll pay the price. Such as the fake Twitter account claiming Altuve wore a buzzer. That’s fall out and part of the cleansing.
6. I’m probably rare in this spectrum of Astro fans but I’m one that believes the Astro brand is deeply tainted. It’ll take many years to get this behind them and repair their image. If ever. Because of this I would begin immediately to wash away the stinch and trade away and/or not renew the contracts of each player on the 2017 WS team.
7. As an Astro fan, I have watched hundreds of coaches & players come and go. Today’s players, Mgr & GM has taken from me and all life long fans my team. A team that I was once proud of. There will be a better day in the future, but right now it’s time to move from these players.
Agee or disagree. I don’t even care.
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WNAS - I appreciate your thoughts.
We've been in Houston 27 years now.
Started casually following the Astros in the mid 90s, as a vendor of mine has 2nd row seats behind the Astros dugout.
It started as a fun outing at the ball park.
As you are aware, there were a lot of years when the ball park experience had better be good, as the product on the field was not.
I am a fair-weather PRO sports fan. If the Texans are pretty good, I will make time to stop and watch them on Sunday. If they are not, I will play golf, mow the yard, play in the pool, shop, etc on Sunday.
Same with the Astros, except we have come to enjoy the ability to set on the patio with an adult beverage and watch them play almost every day.
I'm connected to the Astros now, but not nearly as intimately as yourself.
I'm actually wearing an Astros shirt today.
I am in a position that these guys are playing in a stratosphere that I can't even imagine, so I don't worry too much about it.
The $5 Million fine the Astros received was an after thought. Financially, I consider it the same as me giving a waiter in a restaurant a $30 tip instead of a 20% tip of $20.
I am still going to be able to set on my patio with an adult beverage and watch an Astros game in the evenings.
I will still get 2nd row tickets for free and enjoy the ball park experience.
I may be watching Jose Altuve, George Springer, Alex Bregman.
Or I may be watching Joe Smith, Dave Jones, Juan Gonzalez.
Maybe, because I am admittedly a fair-weather fan, I don't feel the same animosity toward the team and players.
Frankly, I am shocked that Luhnow and Hinch were suspended and then fired.
I believe the Commissioner got his panties in a wad over something that is a minor deal, when you consider corked bats, spitballs, HGH/steroids, juiced balls. etc, etc, etc.
I think I am not more upset about the cheating for two reasons.
1. It is pretty widely known and accepted that pro players are always looking for an advantage and I would be naive to think they were all able to take it right to the line but never cross it.
2. The guys who are first to get caught, always get the brunt (this is now known as the Astros Sign Stealing issue). But, it is known that the Astros were not the only ones doing it. The Astros were either better at it than others or they were worse at hiding it than others.
MLB has an investigative team for a reason. Since I have no choice, I will allow them to investigate, take what they deem appropriate actions and then move on.
We've been in Houston 27 years now.
Started casually following the Astros in the mid 90s, as a vendor of mine has 2nd row seats behind the Astros dugout.
It started as a fun outing at the ball park.
As you are aware, there were a lot of years when the ball park experience had better be good, as the product on the field was not.
I am a fair-weather PRO sports fan. If the Texans are pretty good, I will make time to stop and watch them on Sunday. If they are not, I will play golf, mow the yard, play in the pool, shop, etc on Sunday.
Same with the Astros, except we have come to enjoy the ability to set on the patio with an adult beverage and watch them play almost every day.
I'm connected to the Astros now, but not nearly as intimately as yourself.
I'm actually wearing an Astros shirt today.
I am in a position that these guys are playing in a stratosphere that I can't even imagine, so I don't worry too much about it.
The $5 Million fine the Astros received was an after thought. Financially, I consider it the same as me giving a waiter in a restaurant a $30 tip instead of a 20% tip of $20.
I am still going to be able to set on my patio with an adult beverage and watch an Astros game in the evenings.
I will still get 2nd row tickets for free and enjoy the ball park experience.
I may be watching Jose Altuve, George Springer, Alex Bregman.
Or I may be watching Joe Smith, Dave Jones, Juan Gonzalez.
Maybe, because I am admittedly a fair-weather fan, I don't feel the same animosity toward the team and players.
Frankly, I am shocked that Luhnow and Hinch were suspended and then fired.
I believe the Commissioner got his panties in a wad over something that is a minor deal, when you consider corked bats, spitballs, HGH/steroids, juiced balls. etc, etc, etc.
I think I am not more upset about the cheating for two reasons.
1. It is pretty widely known and accepted that pro players are always looking for an advantage and I would be naive to think they were all able to take it right to the line but never cross it.
2. The guys who are first to get caught, always get the brunt (this is now known as the Astros Sign Stealing issue). But, it is known that the Astros were not the only ones doing it. The Astros were either better at it than others or they were worse at hiding it than others.
MLB has an investigative team for a reason. Since I have no choice, I will allow them to investigate, take what they deem appropriate actions and then move on.
My late brother lived and died Colt 45-Astros baseball and this scandal would have broken his heart.
The Astros will keep their 2017 World Series hardware and will not have to vacate their championship, but the fact that the 2017 Astros will be known forever the team that cheated to win a championship is, to me, the ultimate worst case scenario.
The Astros will keep their 2017 World Series hardware and will not have to vacate their championship, but the fact that the 2017 Astros will be known forever the team that cheated to win a championship is, to me, the ultimate worst case scenario.
The irony here is that MLB seems to be going after the two teams that most threaten the Yankees, your other favorite team. I suspect there is a lot cheating elsewhere, as you referenced. But MLB seems to have that same mentality that is found in Big XII football.
Can't be good unless Texas is good. MLB can't be good unless NY is good. But MLB is doing something about it.
You must be very conflicted.
Can't be good unless Texas is good. MLB can't be good unless NY is good. But MLB is doing something about it.
You must be very conflicted.
You can hate the Yankees all you want, but the ulcer isn't worth it and it won't erase 27 championships.
MLB needs the Yankees' success to fill stadiums and generate money for all....it thrives on both the love and the hatred of the Yankees.
I understand the "hatred" of sports teams which is usually accompanied by the success of the hated teams. I never find many Texas Rangers haters.
MLB is going after two cheaters and it has nothing to do with the Yankees. Therefore, I'm not "conflicted" at all.
And you really don't believe that the decline of the Texas program in football has hurt the Big 12 ?
As mentioned, I'm not worked up over this.
But, in my opinion, "I don't think MLB is going after two cheaters".
I don't think this is over and other teams are being/will be investigated and found to have done similar.
I may be wrong, but that it what I think right now.
Thanks for the replies everyone. Unfortunately “all have sinned and fall short of glory” it is written and inherent in all aspects of life and the sports we love viewing. Trying to win/gain advantage in everything is part & parcel to life on this rock; always has & will be
