In the End

[PryorFan]

Bob Stoops failed to address his biggest problem, his defensive coordinator. Bob will go down before firing a brother. Admirable but not good for the SOONERS. Montgomery saw this and bolted. Zona players did not want to play for Mike and neither do the SOONERS.

Really hope I'm wrong.

 

[Oklabama]

Agree. Now Bob is faced with recruiting another defensive line coach familar with running the defense Bob wants and talented enough to share coordinator duties with his brother. Perhaps i should say willing to share the DC responsibilities. I see that to be an issue for some because Mike appears to be such a dominate personality.

 

[JMISASANO]

Mike Stoops needs to understand that you have to pick your spots when arse chewing players.

Players will tune him out or simply not understand his message as "noisy dumbarse coach" becomes the focus of his communication.

Strangest thing is watching a player come off the field after they just intercepted the ball, Mike Stoops go ballistic about whatever until some other coach grabs his arm to pull him away.

It got the best of Pelini long ago as you watch his players just run to the sidelines and get their arse chewed, then run to the gatorade cooler to chill out. I'm sure most didn't hear a word he had to say.

 

[Brentwood Sooner]

It won't matter if Stoops goes 8-5 this year he will be FIRED!

 

[stuck in del rio]

Originally posted by PryorFan:
Bob Stoops failed to address his biggest problem, his defensive coordinator. Bob will go down before firing a brother. Admirable but not good for the SOONERS. Montgomery saw this and bolted. Zona players did not want to play for Mike and neither do the SOONERS.

Really hope I'm wrong.

I agree with the general sentiments, but Montgomery didn't leave because Bob did not fire Mike...he left because the NFL and Green Bay is a fantastic offer that anyone with desire to coach in that league would not turn down.

 

[barkingwater2000]

I don't think you are wrong. I have no problem firing Heupel, but its hard to justify not also firing Mike. Bob is taking a huge chance because if things don't work out next year then both of them are on the hot seat.

 

[Oklabama]

BW, Bob went "all in". It will be very important for Bob to recruit and hire a DL coach that can help Mike and hopefully the new DB hire is as good as they say. Bob has said several times that the defense is in good position because we have 9 returning starters, or at least he refers to the number of starters that are coming back. Surely Montgomery bolting has caused Bob a lot of anxiety and stress to find a really good DL. Mike will be challenged to deliver a better defense this season especially having to work with two new coaches, coaching a new position, and dragging Tim Kish along the entire season. Tighten your seat belts!

 

[Plainosooner]

Most of what is being told in this thread is close to pure nonsense. Montgomery didn't leave because of some rift with Mike.

Before he came to OU, Montgomery spent almost his entire coaching career
in the cold weather states in the middle of the country, and
specifically Big Ten territory. He did have a couple of years at the
University of Wyoming. But otherwise, Before coming to Norman, he played at
Iowa. He coached two years of high school ball in Iowa after a year as a
student assistant for the Hawkeyes.

He's been a nomad, since.
He had a year as a DC at a community college in Iowa. He got a grad
assistant job for a year at Northern Iowa then was an assistant there
for two years.

Then two years at Wyoming.

Then two years at Michigan.

Then two years at OU. And now moving on again.

He's
not exactly going home. He played HS ball in Nevada. But I suspect his
wife will be closer to home. You never know the personal reasons behind
a move like this. Mostly, this is his best opportunity, maybe ever, to
coach in The League.

He certainly didn't recruit like some guy wanting out.

This
is the perfect job for a young coach who wants to coach in the NFL, but
didn't play in the NFL. Great organization. A top five NFL team. He'll
learn the details of how they do things in the pro's. and give his
resume a great boost.

A guy whose only coaching credits are in
high school and college who never played NFL football, is not going to
get an assistant's coaching job very easily. This is his path to that. I
wish him good luck. He was an asset to OUr coaching staff, and will be
wherever he goes in the future.


Some or most of you guys bashing Bob for not firing his brother, and never will, are the same people who couldn't wait to see BV out the door and Mike as the savior who was coming back to fix our defense. And now, you're turning on him.

Montgomery is a good coach. But he is a movin on man and has been since he graduated from Iowa. He just did what he's done at every stop of his coaching career. Blaming Bob and Mike for that might be fashionable, but it's just not true.

 

[barkingwater2000]

My theory is that Montgomery probably read this msg board and all the negativity drove him away. Didn't I tell you guys to watch what you say on here?

 

[Oklabama]

Plaino, Pryor is the only one that suggested that Montgomery's relation with Mike had anything to do with his decision. But most do think that Mike got a pass on last year's performance, and that he is a volatile personality, and Bob is rolling the dice by keeping Mike this year. Do you not think that it was strange that Mike didn't go with Josh and Jay? Or, better yet, do you think that Mike would have retain his job if he wasn't Bob's brother? That's gist of most of what's in this thread. IMO, Montgomery left for exactly all the reasons you have listed. I agree 100%. That's really not what this thread is about, IMO.
This post was edited on 2/12 11:55 AM by Oklabama

 

[soonerdave]

Originally posted by Brentwood Sooner:
It won't matter if Stoops goes 8-5 this year he will be FIRED!

If it got to that point, I believe Mike would willingly leave well before it came to Bob having to fire him. I also believe that despite what the rumor mill would say under such a scenario, that decision would be made totally by Mike, with absolutely no input from Bob. I really believe that. That is a TIGHT group of Ohio brothers for sure, and believe you/me they have each other's back, and Mike would never put Bob into that situation.

 

[barkingwater2000]

I'm not sold that 9 returning starters coming back from a terrible defense is necessarily a good thing.

 

[CTOkie]

How do you KNOW that there was not a rift between Mike Stoops and Montgomery ? And if there was, why would either coach reveal it publicly ?
Reports say that Montgomery's new role with the Packers is as a "quality control coach" or in a role "that is still unspecified". which can't be as prestigious as being on Bob Stoops' staff.
His recruiting ability right up to his last day was stellar, but that may have to do with him taking pride in his job....to do well up until the last minute.....and may have nothing to do with wanting to leave or stay.
Regardless of the circumstances, OU has lost one of its top two coaches and coming on the heels of a bad season, it's does not reflect that all is well within the program.
It will be very interesting to see when and if Montgomery is replaced.

 

[Plainosooner]

Originally posted by barkingwater2000:
I'm not sold that 9 returning starters coming back from a terrible defense is necessarily a good thing.

BW, I agree with you. Your post reminded me of a press conference from more than 50 years ago. It was when the old Southwest Conference had seven teams in Texas plus the Razorbacks. And some coaches who'd been around for a while. One was Jess Neely who spent 27 years at Rice starting before WWII.

And it was the preseason tour of journalists visiting every campus as a group. This was in the one platoon days and one scribe asked optimistically what it felt to have ten of his 11 starters returning.

And Jess reminded him that those same players had only one win, the year before. So he was tempering his excitement.

They actually ended up second in the SWC and went to the Sugar Bowl. (See, there was a time when Rice was relevant)

Now we were better than that last season, at least until the last two games, but the returning guys still have a lot to prove.

I wouldn't be surprised if you see us playing a lot more 4-3 next season. It seemed to work pretty well against us last season.

 

[WhyNotaSooner]

Originally posted by PryorFan:
Bob Stoops failed to address his biggest problem, his defensive coordinator. Bob will go down before firing a brother. Admirable but not good for the SOONERS. Montgomery saw this and bolted. Zona players did not want to play for Mike and neither do the SOONERS.

Really hope I'm wrong.

I'm not comfortable going forward with Mike Stoops as the DC but having said this, I think Bib what he could for one year. Meaning that I think changing the DC & the D Coaches along with the OC and the O Coaches is a bit too much change in one year. I do think Mike Stoops time is officially on the clock these days. The offense saw changes and will now have a few years to produce. The defense will have to show improvement, drastically in the 2015 season or Mike will be ushered out the door, with or without Bob.

 

[WhyNotaSooner]

Originally posted by Plainosooner:
Most of what is being told in this thread is close to pure nonsense. Montgomery didn't leave because of some rift with Mike.

Before he came to OU, Montgomery spent almost his entire coaching career
in the cold weather states in the middle of the country, and
specifically Big Ten territory. He did have a couple of years at the
University of Wyoming. But otherwise, Before coming to Norman, he played at
Iowa. He coached two years of high school ball in Iowa after a year as a
student assistant for the Hawkeyes.

He's been a nomad, since.
He had a year as a DC at a community college in Iowa. He got a grad
assistant job for a year at Northern Iowa then was an assistant there
for two years.

Then two years at Wyoming.

Then two years at Michigan.

Then two years at OU. And now moving on again.

He's
not exactly going home. He played HS ball in Nevada. But I suspect his
wife will be closer to home. You never know the personal reasons behind
a move like this. Mostly, this is his best opportunity, maybe ever, to
coach in The League.

He certainly didn't recruit like some guy wanting out.

This
is the perfect job for a young coach who wants to coach in the NFL, but
didn't play in the NFL. Great organization. A top five NFL team. He'll
learn the details of how they do things in the pro's. and give his
resume a great boost.

A guy whose only coaching credits are in
high school and college who never played NFL football, is not going to
get an assistant's coaching job very easily. This is his path to that. I
wish him good luck. He was an asset to OUr coaching staff, and will be
wherever he goes in the future.


Some or most of you guys bashing Bob for not firing his brother, and never will, are the same people who couldn't wait to see BV out the door and Mike as the savior who was coming back to fix our defense. And now, you're turning on him.

Montgomery is a good coach. But he is a movin on man and has been since he graduated from Iowa. He just did what he's done at every stop of his coaching career. Blaming Bob and Mike for that might be fashionable, but it's just not true.

I'm not turning on him, I'm turning on his performance. There's a huge difference. It's either produce or get the hell out of the way, resign, step down, go away. Bottomline win. I'm a Sooner fan first and foremost. This is something you as a fan sincerely struggle with. I have no clue why either. It doesn't make sense. Mike Stoops's 2014 defense was rated in the bottom 10% of D1 football in passing and you think Sooner fans should be happy & good about it. Foolishness, I say, foolishness.

 

[coe8189]

If I remember correctly Bob himself is a pretty damn good DC. Maybe he will will have more say as to what they are doing. I am sure in 2000 it was soley Mike making all the decisions.

 

[OU50]

It may not have been the only factor but I have no doubt that the Mike/Kish thing had something to do with Montgomery leaving. It would be hard for somebody to do all the heavy lifting recruiting and watch Kish stand around with his thumb up his butt. Add in Mike doing his usual fit throwing on the sideline and getting in his face and he is out. Heup got fired, deservedly, but keep in mind we lost games last year where we scored over 30 points. Then Mike goes in front of cameras and says he doesn't know what to do. If Heupel got fired then Mike should have been fired too, but Bob will go down with him before he does that.

 

[bcsoonerfan]

CT,

Just because we don't know if there were issues between Mike and Jerry doesn't mean its credible to assume or speculate as much. Basically this is a bunch of knee jerk nobodys blaming the guy they're most mad at for anything that isn't good news. I'm sure if Heupel were still here he'd be taking the fall for this!

Jerry got an offer from one of the top 3 franchises in the history of the NFL and some of you are speculating why he left?! In the great words of Biff Tannen, "Hello! McFly!"

 

[WhyNotaSooner]

Knee jerk nobody's.

Gotta love it. When all else fails with a response, go to the insult file. It never stops by the same flamers.

But neither will the detractors of commentary of below avg performances of OU football.

Simply put. I'm a Sooner fan. I expect more.

 

[Plainosooner]

I don't think Mike has made a play since the 80s. Players make plays or they don't .

I've heard all the complaints about the cushion given to receivers in the second half against Baylor. Problem was, our DB's couldn't cover their receivers. You can only double one or maybe two unless you don't care to have a chance against the run.

Mike was brilliant when you liked the results. He hasn't changed. The game has some, but mostly players make plays or they don't.

So yes, WN, you did exactly turn on him. And because you are so certain that OU's players should always be better than the other guys' then it must be the coach or coaches. Funny thing, there was a huge furrowing of brows at Montgomery's departure, yet his front was what could have made a defensive difference and didn't. I'm not dumping on Monty. Players make plays. His didn't nearly often enough.

But because people here seem obsessed with recruiting more than anything else. he's viewed as the best coach on the staff. I wish him luck in his new pursuit. But Mike is still a solid, proven DC. Monty wasn't.

 

[dfwsoonerfan]

Mike will have the last laugh.... He finally has big physical corners that fit his systems and he is going back to 5 secondary players on field which will help against great offenses. You ass clowns that want him gone don't know jack about Defense.

 

[bcsoonerfan]

WNAS, unsubstantiated rumors deserve criticism...just like your fervent defense against the Horn posters ready to claim our players "felt lied to" regarding Montgomerys departure.

 

[bcsoonerfan]

dfwsoonerfan...

...I wanna buy you a beer.

 

[Soonersincefitty]

Wow, I haven't heard this kind of spinning since Brian Williams dented my TV screen from the inside out with his Pinocchio nose of late.

You guys are just so dramatic...it's really comical sometimes, and I thank you from the heart of my bottom...

 

[CTOkie]

Originally posted by bcsoonerfan:
CT,

Just because we don't know if there were issues between Mike and Jerry doesn't mean its credible to assume or speculate as much. Basically this is a bunch of knee jerk nobodys blaming the guy they're most mad at for anything that isn't good news. I'm sure if Heupel were still here he'd be taking the fall for this!

Jerry got an offer from one of the top 3 franchises in the history of the NFL and some of you are speculating why he left?! In the great words of Biff Tannen, "Hello! McFly!"

Regardless of why Montgomery departed, it left a few questions unanswered.....from the media and from those "knee jerk nobodies" who are part of the "peanut gallery".
Looks like Plaino doesn't mind sharing his lofty pedestal with you.




This post was edited on 2/12 9:54 PM by CTOkie

 

[WhyNotaSooner]

Originally posted by dfwsoonerfan:
Mike will have the last laugh.... He finally has big physical corners that fit his systems and he is going back to 5 secondary players on field which will help against great offenses. You ass clowns that want him gone don't know jack about Defense.

Ha! Here we go! Some said I didn't know a damn thing about 'stacked defenses' either. But I knew enought to know that Huepel flat-ass could not and did not do well as the OC. And if Mike wasn't a blood brother, his butt would be coaching with Pelini.

How is Mike going to get the last laugh? By winning? Not from me. That's all we as fans want. Has the OU defense performed well since his return? No. The team is not performing well. They aren't. Period. Mike Stoop's defenses have just flat out sucked. You can blame it on the players if you wish and spare him. I hold the players accountable as well but I don't/won't spare the Coaches. Mike's first class since his return is coming of age now. We've been told that a returuning 9 starters will do the trick. So he's officially on his on clock now. Bottom-line, I don't care if it it's Mike, Bob, or Huepel's baby boy, as a fan, I want to see positive results.

 

[WhyNotaSooner]

BC,
Mine isn't a rumor. I'm not spreading rumors. My thoughts are my thoughts. And I can damn well speculate all I want on this subject and any subject. You can't prevent me from speclating as to why Monty left. That's follishness. You can disagree if you wish, but can't tell me why Monty left other than what the spin machine from OU Athletics Dept will let you know.

For the record, you and dfw are speculating that the defense will improve and Mike is to have some kind of last laugh. I have no idea if he will or he won't. What I do know is that he hasn't yet.

 

[WhyNotaSooner]

Originally posted by Plainosooner:
I don't think Mike has made a play since the 80s. Players make plays or they don't .

I've heard all the complaints about the cushion given to receivers in the second half against Baylor. Problem was, our DB's couldn't cover their receivers. You can only double one or maybe two unless you don't care to have a chance against the run.

Mike was brilliant when you liked the results. He hasn't changed. The game has some, but mostly players make plays or they don't.

So yes, WN, you did exactly turn on him. And because you are so certain that OU's players should always be better than the other guys' then it must be the coach or coaches. Funny thing, there was a huge furrowing of brows at Montgomery's departure, yet his front was what could have made a defensive difference and didn't. I'm not dumping on Monty. Players make plays. His didn't nearly often enough.

But because people here seem obsessed with recruiting more than anything else. he's viewed as the best coach on the staff. I wish him luck in his new pursuit. But Mike is still a solid, proven DC. Monty wasn't.

Believe as you will. I don't give a damn. You're a hardcore pom pom waver that has no reality in life that I can see or read.
But there is one thing we both have in common, we both can't wait until Mike starts winning again. Both unfortunately for different reasons. You so you can't point a finger and say, "I told you so." Me, so I can point a finger and say. "OU #1".

 

[bcsoonerfan]

You can opine all you want WNAS, but it doesn't give any validation to the absurd notion that Mike is the reason Jerry is gone. And I'd consider anyone dense if they view his departure to a top NFL franchise as an escape rather than an opportunity. It sounds more like a nut job conspiracy theory. What's next? Are you gonna tell me you spotted Mike on the grassy knoll?

Reminds me, I need some tin foil.

 

[bcsoonerfan]

What questions, CT?

If Montgomery left for a job that would've been considered a backward move, then it it would make sense to have some scratching their heads. But he didn't. He left for the NFL, and one of the finer franchises in league history, who'll likely be competing for a title for the next several years.

I love the Sooners on a fanatical scale, but the tint on my crimson colored glasses is not so dark to think we out rank the Green Bay Packers in the world of football.

No no no, I'm sure its much more likely that Jerry just didn't like Mike and hopped on the first train out of town. Fortunately Jerry had a leprechaun up his ass and the train was headed to Green Bay, Wisconsin.

And Plaino and I aren't on a pedestal, we just appear higher because our heads are on our shoulders.

 

[WhyNotaSooner]

Originally posted by bcsoonerfan:
You can opine all you want WNAS, but it doesn't give any validation to the absurd notion that Mike is the reason Jerry is gone. And I'd consider anyone dense if they view his departure to a top NFL franchise as an escape rather than an opportunity. It sounds more like a nut job conspiracy theory. What's next? Are you gonna tell me you spotted Mike on the grassy knoll?

Reminds me, I need some tin foil.

Mike was born after Kennedy's assassination. Just so you know. The OU comments from the Ath. Dept doesn't give me validation of their spin either. As I told Tulsan and Plano for 18 months, I'm entitled to post my thoughts as you are. With reference to my commentary on Huepel, I was correct, they weren't.

Just win baby, just win. Mike hasn't yet since his return. He may again. He may never. Time will tell. But the defense of Coaches only reminds us all how things went down with Huepel. He was fired. And he was fired while a few on this board praised him til his last few hours of his last day. They were wrong on him and I hope you and others are actually right on Mike Stoops. If he does bad, he'll catch flak, including mine. If he does well, he catch praise, including mine.

As far as your tin foil hat, get the heavy duty, extra large roll, I'm told it works better for bigger heads.






This post was edited on 2/13 12:02 AM by WhyNotaSooner

 

[Soonersincefitty]

OMG, yous guys are good...Ha!

Keep it coming...LMAO!

 

[bcsoonerfan]

- Josh and Mike's success or failures as football coaches has nothing to do with an unsubstantiated rumor about Mike and Jerry's relationship, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

- Nobody is telling you you can't share your opinion, I'm just saying that opinions from the rumor mill are deserving of criticism.

- Nothing to say about the fact that he's leaving for the Packers?

- My tin foil is used for kitchen purposes.

 

[CTOkie]

Originally posted by bcsoonerfan:
What questions, CT?

If Montgomery left for a job that would've been considered a backward move, then it it would make sense to have some scratching their heads. But he didn't. He left for the NFL, and one of the finer franchises in league history, who'll likely be competing for a title for the next several years.

I love the Sooners on a fanatical scale, but the tint on my crimson colored glasses is not so dark to think we out rank the Green Bay Packers in the world of football.

No no no, I'm sure its much more likely that Jerry just didn't like Mike and hopped on the first train out of town. Fortunately Jerry had a leprechaun up his ass and the train was headed to Green Bay, Wisconsin.

And Plaino and I aren't on a pedestal, we just appear higher because our heads are on our shoulders.

My point is that there were questions surrounding Montgomery's leaving and it was discussed by the media and here on the board. I do not KNOW why he left at this time.
Neither you or Plaino "appear higher"......only arrogant and condescending in a weak attempt to legitimize your opinions at others' expense.....and it's not working.

 

[WhyNotaSooner]

Originally posted by CTOkie:

Originally posted by bcsoonerfan:
What questions, CT?

If Montgomery left for a job that would've been considered a backward move, then it it would make sense to have some scratching their heads. But he didn't. He left for the NFL, and one of the finer franchises in league history, who'll likely be competing for a title for the next several years.

I love the Sooners on a fanatical scale, but the tint on my crimson colored glasses is not so dark to think we out rank the Green Bay Packers in the world of football.

No no no, I'm sure its much more likely that Jerry just didn't like Mike and hopped on the first train out of town. Fortunately Jerry had a leprechaun up his ass and the train was headed to Green Bay, Wisconsin.

And Plaino and I aren't on a pedestal, we just appear higher because our heads are on our shoulders.

My point is that there were questions surrounding Montgomery's leaving and it was discussed by the media and here on the board. I do not KNOW why he left at this time.
Neither you or Plaino "appear higher"......only arrogant and condescending in a weak attempt to legitimize your opinions at others' expense.....and it's not working.

Never does.

 

[pfka_ms]

Originally posted by Plainosooner:
I don't think Mike has made a play since the 80s. Players make plays or they don't .

I've heard all the complaints about the cushion given to receivers in the second half against Baylor. Problem was, our DB's couldn't cover their receivers. You can only double one or maybe two unless you don't care to have a chance against the run.

Mike was brilliant when you liked the results. He hasn't changed. The game has some, but mostly players make plays or they don't.

So yes, WN, you did exactly turn on him. And because you are so certain that OU's players should always be better than the other guys' then it must be the coach or coaches. Funny thing, there was a huge furrowing of brows at Montgomery's departure, yet his front was what could have made a defensive difference and didn't. I'm not dumping on Monty. Players make plays. His didn't nearly often enough.

But because people here seem obsessed with recruiting more than anything else. he's viewed as the best coach on the staff. I wish him luck in his new pursuit. But Mike is still a solid, proven DC. Monty wasn't.

Yes players make plays but coaches have to put them into position to make plays. Manny Diaz didn't put players in position to make plays and his schemes were questionable. He gets fired, Greg Robinson comes in and in a matter of weeks there is dramatic improvement.

And since players make plays, they have to want to play for their coaches. Towards the end Texas players did not want to play for Mack. You watch the interviews of of Strong's former players at Louisville and Florida and they would have run through walls for their coach.

Players make plays, but coaching and scheme matter. A LOT.

 

[soonerfastnloud]

We need to back off and see what happens, we have to give Bob a chance to turn this program around. Bob is a defensive minded coach too, I am sure he can help Mike with the defense. Bob made changes so let's give it a chance.

 

[Plainosooner]

Originally posted by WhyNotaSooner:

Originally posted by Plainosooner:
I don't think Mike has made a play since the 80s. Players make plays or they don't .

I've heard all the complaints about the cushion given to receivers in the second half against Baylor. Problem was, our DB's couldn't cover their receivers. You can only double one or maybe two unless you don't care to have a chance against the run.

Mike was brilliant when you liked the results. He hasn't changed. The game has some, but mostly players make plays or they don't.

So yes, WN, you did exactly turn on him. And because you are so certain that OU's players should always be better than the other guys' then it must be the coach or coaches. Funny thing, there was a huge furrowing of brows at Montgomery's departure, yet his front was what could have made a defensive difference and didn't. I'm not dumping on Monty. Players make plays. His didn't nearly often enough.

But because people here seem obsessed with recruiting more than anything else. he's viewed as the best coach on the staff. I wish him luck in his new pursuit. But Mike is still a solid, proven DC. Monty wasn't.

Believe as you will. I don't give a damn. You're a hardcore pom pom waver that has no reality in life that I can see or read.
But there is one thing we both have in common, we both can't wait until Mike starts winning again. Both unfortunately for different reasons. You so you can't point a finger and say, "I told you so." Me, so I can point a finger and say. "OU #1".

Say what?

I mostly agree with the guys who actually know what they're doing, and you consistently claim to know more than they do.

And I'm the one out of touch with reality and full of arrogance?

My, my, my.

Your use of the word "entitled" as it related to your opinion in one of your other diatribes, was very accurate.

Players make plays or they don't. But in your view, when we lose, it's always the coaches' fault. Mostly, because you're entitled to never ever have to deal with "your" team, losing. I'm not sure which world you live in, but reality has very little to do with it.

 

[DallasSooner]

Is it possible that Bob and Mike and all those other idiots (sarcasm) on the defensive side of the ball are reevaluating what they are doing on that side of the ball?

I'm guessing they were as embarrassed as we were with what happened.

I just have to think guys that have dedicated their lives and careers to OU football (i'm talking about Bob and Mike, not guys on a message board) are going to be proactive and do whatever they can to fix the problems.

I'm hopeful anyway.