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Kansas is being taken to woodshed

I try not to perceive things necessarily as just liberal or conservative.
I have my opinions which some would call liberal and some would call conservative, but I do not choose to go through life clinging exclusively to one side or the other. I do not see how one can logically hang his/her beliefs on only one school of thought. It's along the same route as religious fanaticism is many cases.
I believe the failure of so many to think eclectically is what is causing this country to be torn apart and why we choose the likes of Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton to be our last two choices in a presidential election.....and why the bar has been forever lowered in our choices.

The Democrats and Republicans of today are no where close to those when I was growing up, so I don't indentify with either party now and haven't for more than a decade. I've never voted for a democratic president, but haven't always voted for the GOP candidate. I changed my party from Republican to Independent, but it didn't accomplish a damn thing. I just feel better. The choices we've had in recent general elections are just as you described. One last thought. 40 years ago democrats and republicans didn't hate as they do today. Nothing much will be accomplished as a result.
 
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My degree was called Ethical and Religious Studies. I learned a lot of specific things in that, but one huge thing is that your world view profoundly impacts your outlook and usually your decision making.

Failure to think eclectically you would call a big problem, but there are two issues there. Willingness to hear from those from different points of view is about courtesy. But the notion that absolute thinking is invalid, is in itself, and contradiction, because that is an absolute statement.

Any religious thinker with convictions holds pretty dearly to what he thinks about God or god or not god. When you discover true Truth, then being kind to others ought to be part of the end game. But there is a difference between religious fanaticism. and firm truth conviction in many cases.

Some might see sharing a gospel message with someone who disagrees, to be fanaticism. But though it can be done poorly, the root is love, and if someone is a biblical believer, it's a duty, that most don't do enough.

That is different, in my view, from those who would kill those who disagree with them. Pre-protestant Christians did that multiple centuries ago. And many in Islam believe that to be their duty now. So of that's the religious fanaticism you object to, then most of us would jump on that band wagon.

But claiming to know God in a true way, is a bad thing, if it is the true God. Not here to argue which is, but if god is, and I believe he is, then he doesn't contradict himself. So all god views are not legitimate. Several can be, so long as the core is true.

But God cannot be A and anti A at the same time. So not all views can be equal and true. And the more secular the country has become in the last 50 years, things that we'd view as non beneficial to the country have become more the norm.

The eclectic view these days, seems to want to pick and choose which views will be allowed, and which will be squelched. And it often wants to make any god view to be out of the discussion. So that makes for a presupposition that ultimately contradicts itself, because broad, means only in the sense that they define and allow. It's not so broad.
 
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I'm not in line with literal interpretation of the Bible.
I believe in what I would term a non-biblical God. My inner beliefs I try to apply to everyday life with no self righteous "preaching" or judgemental towards others. Whatever works for others in terms of making them moral beings and bringing them happiness is fine with me. It's not about me thinking that eclectic thought is the absolute way to think, only that it works for me.
The longer I live the more aware I am that the world is no longer about people thinking in terms of moderation and tolerance and that the "I'm right and you're wrong" mentality has poisoned us.
I feel that one who claims to "know" the ultimate religious or philosophical truth is a fool. That is a common opinion among most philosophers. "Faith without doubt is moral arrogance" and "faith without doubt is blind faith".....and I would say that to an atheist who share a very different "faith".
I haven't been able to adhere to a belief in an afterlife (heaven or hell) and feel that perhaps my current existence is the only life I'll ever have. I feel that most so-called religious people use the belief in an afterlife in order to cope with the fear of death....and that being "good" with result in the reward of eternal life. Why not be "good" because it's the right thing to do, with or without life after death ?
 
I'm not in line with literal interpretation of the Bible.
I believe in what I would term a non-biblical God. My inner beliefs I try to apply to everyday life with no self righteous "preaching" or judgemental towards others. Whatever works for others in terms of making them moral beings and bringing them happiness is fine with me. It's not about me thinking that eclectic thought is the absolute way to think, only that it works for me.
The longer I live the more aware I am that the world is no longer about people thinking in terms of moderation and tolerance and that the "I'm right and you're wrong" mentality has poisoned us.
I feel that one who claims to "know" the ultimate religious or philosophical truth is a fool. That is a common opinion among most philosophers. "Faith without doubt is moral arrogance" and "faith without doubt is blind faith".....and I would say that to an atheist who share a very different "faith".
I haven't been able to adhere to a belief in an afterlife (heaven or hell) and feel that perhaps my current existence is the only life I'll ever have. I feel that most so-called religious people use the belief in an afterlife in order to cope with the fear of death....and that being "good" with result in the reward of eternal life. Why not be "good" because it's the right thing to do, with or without life after death ?

That's a common view. It is essentially a New Age view. And you're right. The God of the bible isn't in love with that view.

For me, its an issue of evidence, and fairness. Constitutionally, we're allowed to believe what we want. But in the public sector, your view is allowed, because of its secular basis. Mine isn't, even with secular evidence. How tolerant is that? That is my objection to the current paradigm in schools in the country. Free speech isn't allowed, unless those in control agree with it.
 
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That's a common view. It is essentially a New Age view. And you're right. The God of the bible isn't in love with that view.

For me, its an issue of evidence, and fairness. Constitutionally, we're allowed to believe what we want. But in the public sector, your view is allowed, because of its secular basis. Mine isn't, even with secular evidence. How tolerant is that? That is my objection to the current paradigm in schools in the country. Free speech isn't allowed, unless those in control agree with it.
If I believe in God, then the way I believe in God is not secular.
If I reject literal intrepretation of the Bible, it is not necessarily a secular belief.
It's safe to say I'm not "God fearing"....is that a secular thing ?
 
I don't claim to be right, but don't feel I'm absolutely wrong. Robert De Niro was quoted to say "I don't know if there is a God, but if there is, he has a damn lot to answer for". That's about the way I feel. I was raised to be a good citizen, work hard and try never to cause anybody heartache. Even though I haven't always been successful, I think my mother would be happy with the way I've turned out. Everyone to his/her own beliefs.
 
I don't claim to be right, but don't feel I'm absolutely wrong. Robert De Niro was quoted to say "I don't know if there is a God, but if there is, he has a damn lot to answer for". That's about the way I feel. I was raised to be a good citizen, work hard and try never to cause anybody heartache. Even though I haven't always been successful, I think my mother would be happy with the way I've turned out. Everyone to his/her own beliefs.
I don't believe anyone can claim to be right when it comes to religion. Many of the world's problems are rooted in people claiming they are right....and this mentality comes at the expense of many others.
 
Woody Allen once said, "How can there be a god when there is war, famine and daytime television ?"

I used to think that cute before his various dalliances over the years. I prefer his Groucho Marx line: "I don't want to be a member of any group that would have me as a member" routine.

I wonder why members of the Hebrew family can ever vote for a system that is bent on its own destruction ?
 
Some CT would now contend the viability of Conservatism and Liberalism is lost. In new practical terms, they've been relegated to mere conceptualism having been displaced/consolidated by Greed. Greed is the new science. Souls are being lost to the highest bidder at an alarming rate.
 
For those on here who are interested, I am right about God. He chose me long before I chose him. If that is "foolish" and "blind faith", count me as happy for being both.
 
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IA, my guess is that would be a little shaky. JFK would be a possible maybe. But RFK sort of headed us in this left direction, while living a pretty unmoral personal life. I can't think of anything non liberal about Bobby. John, who encouraged Americans to bear any burden and pay any price, and who sought fiscal sanity, maybe.

Well at least RFK was obviously pro-life...
 
Roe v Wade didn't happen until five years after Bobby died. I sincerely doubt he'd have stayed pro life had he lived. No northeastern Catholic democrats in congress did. And he was as far on the political left as anybody in the house or senate, by 1968 standards.

Well at least RFK was obviously pro-life...
 
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Roe v Wade didn't happen until five years after Bobby died. I sincerely doubt he'd have stayed pro life had he lived. No northeastern Catholic democrats in congress did. And he was as far on the political left as anybody in the house or senate, by 1968 standards.
Agree.
And in my opinion, RFK was greatly overrated....but I believe he may have defeated Nixon in the 1968 election.
 
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I also had more than a couple History of Science courses, one from Roller. He wasn't so naive as to separate pure and applied science, and not so specific in his lack of understanding as to separate the scientific method from pure science. There may be some would-be youngsters who think that they have the scientific genius to create great theory while sitting around a campfire. But, the scientific community is so interconnected that they are completely aware, or should be, of even minor papers in their specific field, which the the reason that so many publish in English. They want it to reach everyone.

The scientist is fully aware of everyone's experiments when he arrives at his hare-brained scheme (not yet even a hypothesis, much less a theory). It is simply a direction to be investigated, rarely greatly different from many others. It may simply be eliminating confusion. If there is sufficient evidence to warrant further investigation, it may reach the level of being a hypothesis. Only after years of testing would it become a theory. Thus, a theory, like the Theory of Evolution, has been through over a hundred years of testing, and nothing has been found to disprove it yet. Let me clarify this: every biologist in the world would love to be the Superstar who disproved the Theory of Evolution. You would be the biggest name in science for the next thousand years. It won't happen. It is so much a part of the foundation on which biology is based that biology would collapse and have to rediscover something that explained structure, physiology, and genetics.

Since we are in the Bible Belt, there is the thought that religion and science are in disagreement. Yet, the Catholic Church has been a part of it. Most of the older Christian churches have adopted evolution and teach it in their schools. It is interesting that so many think that religion is in opposition---rather than simply a very loud component. Contrary to their opinions, scientists have few religious opinions, at least that they discuss. I never heard a group of scientists sit around and postulate on the existence of a god. If one did, the rest would probably tell him to provide some positive or negative evidence with which to begin a discussion. Conversation ended.

We don't have the Galileos and Copernicus' any more for a reason. They weren't the only game in town. There was a lot of good science going on in China, Persia, India, and the Arab world. We just weren't particularly a part of it. Now, when they conduct one of the supercollider experiments, over three thousand computers worldwide are plugged in to the Hadron. There may be one or ten experiments arising from the data recorded by each computer. A good book which is supposedly written for the masses is "Knocking on Heaven's Door," by Lisa Randall, theoretical physicist at Harvard (think Sheldon for real, except with a personality). This is no titled such because of the search for a "god particle," as some have claimed, but because she is a huge fan of music and of Bob Dylan. Her chapter titles tend to be Dylan lyrics. She also wrote a symphony played by the New York Philharmonic. It is a good book and a fun read. But, it helps if you had at least college physics.

The motivations for scientists are varied. I think most get a kick out of being the first to know something. Every time you do an experiment, until you tell someone or publish it, you are the only person in the world who knows that piece of evidence. It may not be much, and hardly ever pays much, but it is interesting to reach that step. An exchange between a couple of scientists working in the same field is somewhat like Christmas with an exchange of gifts, and you are excited to give and to receive.
 
It's not possible for me to believe in a god who's loving, all-knowing or controls mankind with a "will". I can only relate to the god I believe in as a divine creative consciousness that has no part in the direction of our lives. That direction is left up to us.
Given all the cruelty and evil that has occurred in human history....and what is going on now....I cannot believe a god who loves us exists.
I had a friend who lost his one year old son in an auto accident in 1985, which was the saddest day of my life. I heard comments as "he's in a better place now", "God will help us through this". I found such rhetoric as offensive as it was stupid. I came away from this event believing that things happen without "rhyme or reason", that there is no will of God, and that we're always vulnerable to coincidental events in the absence of predetermined fate. Like spinning a top, once a human life is set in motion, it's direction and spin duration and direction is impossible to determine.
 
So you are saying one of two things. Either god is evil, or there is no god?

Sybarite, your own definition of Science departed from Dr. Roller's about the third paragraph. Nothing wrong with that. But it was the basis of what he taught, that the scientist was the postulate maker.

And that our senses deceive us. The scientist knows what is, even when the experiment doesn't agree.

The theory of evolution has never been proven or anything close. The more we learn, the less valid it is. But the "scientific community" only allows an anti god dogma. Other voices are treated like conservative politicians at liberal colleges campi.

The complexity of cells is tossed away with the idea "settled" by billions of years. Which also pretty illogical, based on the earth's gravitationl pull and electro magnetic power. It wouldn't have allowed cell formation a billion years ago.
 
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The theory of evolution has never been proven or anything close.

You don't prove a theory. You can only disprove a theory. I don't think you understand the scientific method.
The theory of evolution is built on many established laws of physical nature which are proven. The facts that support evolution are abundant, and anyone who claims that the Theory of Evolution is unproven just doesn't understand scientific theory.

Today, we have the scientific means to actually watch genetic mutations in DNA sequences and witness their corresponding adaptations. We have predicted what previously existing species would have looked like before we even discovered their fossils, then lo and behold, we discover those fossils. I guess once we come up with an idea, the Devil just places those fossils for us to find to keep us on the wrong track.

Anyone who has ever owned a modern dog has witnessed and experienced evolution through artificial selection. The facts and evidence are boundless. The Theory of Evolution will never be disproved. New evidence might evolve the Theory of Evolution, but it will never be disproved.
 
So you are saying one of two things. Either god is evil, or there is no god?

Sybarite, your own definition of Science departed from Dr. Roller's about the third paragraph. Nothing wrong with that. But it was the basis of what he taught, that the scientist was the postulate maker.

And that our senses deceive us. The scientist knows what is, even when the experiment doesn't agree.

The theory of evolution has never been proven or anything close. The more we learn, the less valid it is. But the "scientific community" only allows an anti god dogma. Other voices are treated like conservative politicians at liberal colleges campi.

The complexity of cells is tossed away with the idea "settled" by billions of years. Which also pretty illogical, based on the earth's gravitationl pull and electro magnetic power. It wouldn't have allowed cell formation a billion years ago.
You are so far off that it isn't worth discussing.
 
You don't prove a theory. You can only disprove a theory. I don't think you understand the scientific method.
The theory of evolution is built on many established laws of physical nature which are proven. The facts that support evolution are abundant, and anyone who claims that the Theory of Evolution is unproven just doesn't understand scientific theory.

Today, we have the scientific means to actually watch genetic mutations in DNA sequences and witness their corresponding adaptations. We have predicted what previously existing species would have looked like before we even discovered their fossils, then lo and behold, we discover those fossils. I guess once we come up with an idea, the Devil just places those fossils for us to find to keep us on the wrong track.

Anyone who has ever owned a modern dog has witnessed and experienced evolution through artificial selection. The facts and evidence are boundless. The Theory of Evolution will never be disproved. New evidence might evolve the Theory of Evolution, but it will never be disproved.
You really haven't discovered their fossils. Neanderthal man and Nebraska man were not transitional as r we ported, but that little detail is covered up. They didnt find full skeletons. They found a limb, and then some artist drew what they thought it might look like. The fossils in all these cases are ape or human, not transitions .
 
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Historically speaking, er writing, there is more evidence for the resurrection of Jesus, than for macro evolution to be true. You have nothing to account for nothing, then something. You just assume it.

And there are many many things in life, like a giraffe, that defy explanation by evolution.

As for Darwin's theory, it has aleady been disproved many times. Darwin said that for his theory to be true, that cells had to be simple in construction. We now know that one cell, is more complicated than lighting the city of Norman.
 
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You really haven't discovered their fossils. Neanderthal man and Nebraska man were not transitional as r we ported, but that little detail is covered up. They didnt find full skeletons. They found a limb, and then some artist drew what they thought it might look like. The fossils in all these cases are ape or human, not transitions .

I was actually referring to the discovery of Ambulocetus (walking-whale) in only 1993. Before its discovery, scientists had postulated that a walking-whale must have existed to explain the evolution which showed DNA similarities between some aquatic and land life.

I don't think anyone in the scientific community believes we evolved from Neanderthal. There is evidence of interbreeding between Neanderthal and Homo Sapiens, but it is believed that both species evolved from Homo Erectus, hence the very similar DNA.

We've also shown through mitochondrial DNA that all Homo Sapiens can be traced back to a single mitochondrial mother in Africa. The very long life of Homo Erectus (9 times longer than Homo Sapiens have existed!) and then the rapid extinction as well as the presence of a single mitochondrial mother suggests that there were VERY FEW Homo Erectus alive when Homo Sapien emerged. This is the likely explanation why fossil evidence of the transition will be extremely difficult to uncover. There was not a long, gradual change between Homo Erectus and Homo Sapien showing ample evidence of intermingling. Instead, there was some extinction event that was killing Homo Erectus. The emergence of Homo Sapien likely saved the Homo genus. The emergence was possibly also from a mutation encouraged by the increased consumption of animals (protein) by Homo Erectus in their struggle to avoid extinction.
 
I was actually referring to the discovery of Ambulocetus (walking-whale) in only 1993. Before its discovery, scientists had postulated that a walking-whale must have existed to explain the evolution which showed DNA similarities between some aquatic and land life.

I don't think anyone in the scientific community believes we evolved from Neanderthal. There is evidence of interbreeding between Neanderthal and Homo Sapiens, but it is believed that both species evolved from Homo Erectus, hence the very similar DNA.

We've also shown through mitochondrial DNA that all Homo Sapiens can be traced back to a single mitochondrial mother in Africa. The very long life of Homo Erectus (9 times longer than Homo Sapiens have existed!) and then the rapid extinction as well as the presence of a single mitochondrial mother suggests that there were VERY FEW Homo Erectus alive when Homo Sapien emerged. This is the likely explanation why fossil evidence of the transition will be extremely difficult to uncover. There was not a long, gradual change between Homo Erectus and Homo Sapien showing ample evidence of intermingling. Instead, there was some extinction event that was killing Homo Erectus. The emergence of Homo Sapien likely saved the Homo genus. The emergence was possibly also from a mutation encouraged by the increased consumption of animals (protein) by Homo Erectus in their struggle to avoid extinction.

Far out, man. :cool:
 
By the way, I'm not going to state that a creationist is a total crackpot or wholly wrong.
It could be possible that, if there's a divine one, that the extinction of Homo Erectus was a perfect setup to begin Homo Sapien creation in order to follow the general order of physical nature. I just don't believe that. That would require the belief that this creator had nearly 2M years of generations of relatively high-thinking humans (Homo Erectus) to exist and suffer just so Homo Sapiens could one day exist. That's a lot of "pointless" lives for a Petri dish experiment.

But to discount evolution entirely across all animal families given the amount of proof of all kinds of evolution is intentional ignorance.
 
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