Berlin, having been razed to dust by Allied bombing, didn't finish the rebuilding of all the infrastructure until the early 1980s, right at forty years.
WOW!
WOW!
OT...incredible fact about WW2
- Thread starter Soonersincefitty
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I was stationed in Germany in the early 80s and remember some of my German friends commenting that, after all was said and done, it took them essentially 40 years to completely dig out of the damage caused by that war.
Yep, it could have been worse.
The idiot hitler, hellbent on depriving the Allies of any of the 'spoils of war', ordered Albert Speer to initiate a scorched earth policy.
Destroy literally everything. However, Speer having had enough, essentially told Hitler to eff himself. Hitler shot himself a few days later anyway.
The idiot hitler, hellbent on depriving the Allies of any of the 'spoils of war', ordered Albert Speer to initiate a scorched earth policy.
Destroy literally everything. However, Speer having had enough, essentially told Hitler to eff himself. Hitler shot himself a few days later anyway.
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The eastern sector of Berlin was largely ignored, simply functioning as a buffer. It took a while to rebuild in Germany, but they were years ahead of most of eastern Europe in development. Driving through a part of Yugoslavia back when it was Yugoslavia, it was depressing to see how primitive a lot of it still was.
The German infrastructure took a while to rebuild. Once rebuilt, it was in a rather functional way. By 1979 when I left, it was growing rapidly. Yet, there were certain building codes that might have confused outsiders. In Wilhelmshaven, and I think all of Germany, you had to build any new home in the style that existed for the past hundred years. There were some new homes that resembled the ranch homes in the US, but they were in a gated area that had walls around it. Even new apartment buildings had the same style and color as though they had been built in 1920.
When I was there in the seventies, only the older people still remembered the war and its aftermath. They professed a profound love for the Marshall Plan.
The German infrastructure took a while to rebuild. Once rebuilt, it was in a rather functional way. By 1979 when I left, it was growing rapidly. Yet, there were certain building codes that might have confused outsiders. In Wilhelmshaven, and I think all of Germany, you had to build any new home in the style that existed for the past hundred years. There were some new homes that resembled the ranch homes in the US, but they were in a gated area that had walls around it. Even new apartment buildings had the same style and color as though they had been built in 1920.
When I was there in the seventies, only the older people still remembered the war and its aftermath. They professed a profound love for the Marshall Plan.
I never got to visit Berlin when I was stationed in Germany. Sure wish I had made it up there. But I went to Cologne and it was very heavily bombed out. There are pictures of the damage just after the war that included the massive cathedral near the Rhine. That entire area was nothing but bomb damage, and even the huge bridges were sitting in the river. When I was there in 2000, you couldn't even tell a war had happened in that area. It is completely rebuilt into a very modern area. Crazy to think how much effort went into rebuilding after such damage. And Berlin was even worse after the bombing plus the battle between Germany and the Russians to finish the war.
Here is the pic right after the war of the area in Cologne I visited.
Here is the pic right after the war of the area in Cologne I visited.
Wow! That is a crazy picture. That is unreal. Can you imagine being there at that time?I never got to visit Berlin when I was stationed in Germany. Sure wish I had made it up there. But I went to Cologne and it was very heavily bombed out. There are pictures of the damage just after the war that included the massive cathedral near the Rhine. That entire area was nothing but bomb damage, and even the huge bridges were sitting in the river. When I was there in 2000, you couldn't even tell a war had happened in that area. It is completely rebuilt into a very modern area. Crazy to think how much effort went into rebuilding after such damage. And Berlin was even worse after the bombing plus the battle between Germany and the Russians to finish the war.
Here is the pic right after the war of the area in Cologne I visited.
You owe it to yourself to research operation paperclip; Dwight D warned us on his way out the door. (We embraced former Nazi scientists to gain space superiority over the former USSR)
The pinnacle of this country was right after WW2. It's been all down hill ever since.
I know a lot of you will probably be angry at this statement, but as a generation, I lay a lot of blame for the decline of this country at the feet of the boomers. The free love and drugs and all the dumb ass shit in the 60's laid the ground work for the single mothers, drug culture and lack of discipline that we see today. I seriously hate this generation and fear we are repeating the same shit with the millennials as they are called.
Progress is cool and as a Gen Xer, I'm all about progress, but what we have called progress these days is just foolishness. Common sense isn't so common anymore...we just want to "make right what once was wrong" as a blanket statement without all sides making it right. You can't have full racism on one side and racism on the other and call it a balance. There has to be an understanding with matching agendas. To date the only agenda is to pit everyone against everyone else. Sub divide everyone into little groups and pit them against each other. Look around you and say that it isn't true. Everyone belongs to some type of group that is taken advantage of.
I know a lot of you will probably be angry at this statement, but as a generation, I lay a lot of blame for the decline of this country at the feet of the boomers. The free love and drugs and all the dumb ass shit in the 60's laid the ground work for the single mothers, drug culture and lack of discipline that we see today. I seriously hate this generation and fear we are repeating the same shit with the millennials as they are called.
Progress is cool and as a Gen Xer, I'm all about progress, but what we have called progress these days is just foolishness. Common sense isn't so common anymore...we just want to "make right what once was wrong" as a blanket statement without all sides making it right. You can't have full racism on one side and racism on the other and call it a balance. There has to be an understanding with matching agendas. To date the only agenda is to pit everyone against everyone else. Sub divide everyone into little groups and pit them against each other. Look around you and say that it isn't true. Everyone belongs to some type of group that is taken advantage of.
To some extent, you are accurate. But, I think you have misplaced the emphasis and misunderstood the reason. The division into groups is a political agenda. When you ridicule fact, such as science, for political reasons, you have to look at the group and wonder why. We see a lot of religious division--or do we. Religions that represent about seventy percent of the country are not really involved in the division of religions into groups, nor in the politics of religion. The divisions are deliberate and caused by those who need division in order to accomplish an agenda.
The fact is that this country grew in economic power long before it was a military power. Until WWII, we had never really been a military power, and we tended to avoid prolonged conflict. We expanded industry and began to develop a strong middle class. The availability of the GI Bill provided us with an educated population for the first time, and we had a lot of movement from the lower classes to a middle class due to the education provided. We became an economic superpower. But, a part of it was due to the destruction of foreign industry by the war. Europe and Japan had to rebuild.
If there is a decline, it will be because some have failed to recognize that we built with a lot of cooperation as we built dams and highways from coast to coast. We built a nation from a handful of locales. We had the only college-educated work force in the world to provide a solid middle class. If we falter, it is because we fail to recognize that it was cooperation, science, engineering, and education that built the superpower. Keep that middle class strong, and you will have a strong nation.
When in Germany, one of my colleagues had been born and educated in Köln (Cologne), a Ph.D. in Zellbiologie (Cell Biology). She indicated that when they rebuilt the city after the war, they attempted to keep the tops of the "skyscrapers" exactly as they had been in the city's skyline. The lower floors of the building might be in modern architecture, but the tops of the buildings were built to model the pre-war skyline.I never got to visit Berlin when I was stationed in Germany. Sure wish I had made it up there. But I went to Cologne and it was very heavily bombed out. There are pictures of the damage just after the war that included the massive cathedral near the Rhine. That entire area was nothing but bomb damage, and even the huge bridges were sitting in the river. When I was there in 2000, you couldn't even tell a war had happened in that area. It is completely rebuilt into a very modern area. Crazy to think how much effort went into rebuilding after such damage. And Berlin was even worse after the bombing plus the battle between Germany and the Russians to finish the war.
Here is the pic right after the war of the area in Cologne I visited.
You're right iasooner about paperclip.
We essentially Shanghaid over 700 goose stepping Nazi bastards simply because we wanted Von Braun and his band of big brains to get a leg up on the space race.
In hindsight it worked out for us quite well, but it was totally against the official policy of the time.
We essentially Shanghaid over 700 goose stepping Nazi bastards simply because we wanted Von Braun and his band of big brains to get a leg up on the space race.
In hindsight it worked out for us quite well, but it was totally against the official policy of the time.
I know a lot of you will probably be angry at this statement, but as a generation, I lay a lot of blame for the decline of this country at the feet of the boomers. The free love and drugs and all the dumb ass shit in the 60's laid the ground work for the single mothers, drug culture and lack of discipline that we see today. I seriously hate this generation and fear we are repeating the same shit with[/QUOTE]
Zer0, some of us, maybe millions of we baby boomers carried on the greatest generation values. I hate it when I'm grouped with any collective society. I did it right. My children got the same values instilled in them that I did. Both are very successful.
I get your point, but I'm counter pointing by telling you the baby boomers are not all "flowers in your hair", San Francisco types.
Zer0, some of us, maybe millions of we baby boomers carried on the greatest generation values. I hate it when I'm grouped with any collective society. I did it right. My children got the same values instilled in them that I did. Both are very successful.
I get your point, but I'm counter pointing by telling you the baby boomers are not all "flowers in your hair", San Francisco types.
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Yep, boomer here, worked my ass off for 45 years, to the distinct detriment of my body, but that's okay, proud to say I've always been an asset, not a liability to the system.
Funny, a part of me is screaming out, 'what a fool am I!'
Funny, a part of me is screaming out, 'what a fool am I!'
No sir, you and I were producers of values. Worked our butts off and didn't rely on hand outs. That should be celebrated. Raise your children with the same values.
Someone raised Zer0 very well.................
Baby Boomers are not without their faults but to blame any generation for the problems that came along during an era is shallow to some degree. The "greatest generation" was battle tested through a depression and a horrific world war with so much and stake and prevailed. The "boomers" faced assassinations, an illegal reckless, wasteful and divisive war in Vietnam and a presidential scandal....all of which triggered a distrust and skepticism towards the government and our so-called leaders.
As a "boomer" born in 1948, it bothers me that the Woodstock event is viewed as some kind of cultural awakening....I view it as an indictment on my generation.
As a "boomer" born in 1948, it bothers me that the Woodstock event is viewed as some kind of cultural awakening....I view it as an indictment on my generation.
The wife and I were talking about just this the other day. I really can't speak of much of the 50's music as I was born late in the decade, but quite honestly there hasn't been music made to this day that is close to what was produced in the 60's. I watched Nicki Minaj Friday morning on GMA and they literally had to bleep out about half of the song....again just a personal opinion.
That's a pretty cool little tidbit of info. I never knew that. I know it was crazy looking at those pics of Cologne, that it was hit by numerous "thousand bomber" raids that just carpet bombed from high altitude, and the cathedral I don't think was ever hit. If it did get hit, it took minor damage. But to think it escaped destruction while the surrounding area was gutted like it was just defies logic. Just incredible. And pictures of that cathedral just don't come close to doing it justice. That thing is HUGE!!!!! It's frickin MASSIVE!!!!
And looking back, Paperclip seems like a disgusting decision by our government in turning a blind eye to the war crimes that those people could have been tried for, only to let them have successful lives here in the U.S. But in the context of what would become the Cold War later, it was a move that was maybe the difference between the U.S. surviving or not. Had the U.S. not inherited Von Braun's research and knowledge to put into developing successful ballistic missiles and rockets used in the space program, then Russia could very well had built a massive lead that the U.S. possibly could have never recovered from. Especially if it came to Russia having nuclear capable ballistic missiles years before the U.S could develop them.
Without doubt (sin duda) BR to both points. What some call 'coincidence' I call divine providence whether it be the Cathedral surviving carpet bombing or US winning the Cold War w/ the help of the goose-steppers. (I trust they got their justice eventually, we all will)
Paperclip was a bit more complex than described. First, let's define what a "Nazi scientist" was. In the sixties, in order to be an employee of the University of Oklahoma, you were required to sign a Loyalty Oath, a carryover from the McCarthy Era. I guess that it never occurred to the instigators of this nonsense that a real spy would be only too happy to sign such a paper. If you wanted any job in Germany during and prior to WWII, you were probably going to sign some papers that indicated that you supported Hitler. You signed, or you starved. But, even that simplifies it.
In Judgement at Nuremburg, there is a cynical line by Richard Widmark, "Haven't you heard? There are no Nazis in Germany. There have never been any Nazis in Germany." His cynicism was as a result of his attempt to get someone to admit to being a Nazi at the Nuremburg trials. But, in the three years that I lived in Germany, I never met anyone who did not claim that he had hated Hitler. Wonder what they actually were like when Hitler was in power, and so were they? Mass hysteria envelopes everyone.
But, paperclip was more than just German rocket scientists. I worked with some of the people brought over by paperclip while in the Army at Edgewood Arsenal, the nerve gas research center. There were people from Germany. But, there were also people from Hungary, Poland, and England that I met there. They had all been brought over because of their familiarity with some secret aspects of German science: rocketry, chemical weapons, biological weapons. The Germans didn't claim to be Nazis. The English and Hungarians were about as anti-Nazi as you can get.
But, nothing really happened with all of these people until Sputnik. They had been brought here to keep the Russians from getting them. But, we had no interest in anything that they were doing until Russia put up Sputnik. Suddenly, the von Brauns of the world had some support that they hadn't had in the fifteen years since the war. We needed rockets. We also ramped up the work at Edgewood and Fort Dietrick (biological center).
Whether the work was done by Nazis or whatever, it takes some real stretching of any ethical value system to justify what was done at Edgewood or Dietrick. It wasn't being directed by Nazis or former Nazis. In fact, the strongest resistance to some of the work that we were doing was coming from the people that we had brought in on paperclip.
As Jefferson warned, if the US falls, it will probably be because of our internal reaction to a perceived foreign threat.
In Judgement at Nuremburg, there is a cynical line by Richard Widmark, "Haven't you heard? There are no Nazis in Germany. There have never been any Nazis in Germany." His cynicism was as a result of his attempt to get someone to admit to being a Nazi at the Nuremburg trials. But, in the three years that I lived in Germany, I never met anyone who did not claim that he had hated Hitler. Wonder what they actually were like when Hitler was in power, and so were they? Mass hysteria envelopes everyone.
But, paperclip was more than just German rocket scientists. I worked with some of the people brought over by paperclip while in the Army at Edgewood Arsenal, the nerve gas research center. There were people from Germany. But, there were also people from Hungary, Poland, and England that I met there. They had all been brought over because of their familiarity with some secret aspects of German science: rocketry, chemical weapons, biological weapons. The Germans didn't claim to be Nazis. The English and Hungarians were about as anti-Nazi as you can get.
But, nothing really happened with all of these people until Sputnik. They had been brought here to keep the Russians from getting them. But, we had no interest in anything that they were doing until Russia put up Sputnik. Suddenly, the von Brauns of the world had some support that they hadn't had in the fifteen years since the war. We needed rockets. We also ramped up the work at Edgewood and Fort Dietrick (biological center).
Whether the work was done by Nazis or whatever, it takes some real stretching of any ethical value system to justify what was done at Edgewood or Dietrick. It wasn't being directed by Nazis or former Nazis. In fact, the strongest resistance to some of the work that we were doing was coming from the people that we had brought in on paperclip.
As Jefferson warned, if the US falls, it will probably be because of our internal reaction to a perceived foreign threat.
And be damn glad the U.S. did what they did to keep Von Braun and his team from falling into the hands of the Russians. Had the Russians had them, then they would have had an insurmountable lead in that portion of the arms race. And that's false that Von Braun and his guys were sitting around doing nothing prior to Sputnik. They were working for the Army on the ballistic missile program, until they were moved over to NASA after Sputnik. Even then I'm sure he still had input on the ballistic missile program. He was too valuable to not be utilized.
If I remember correctly, the U.S. refused to prosecute certain Japanese scientists that performed massive war crimes at biological research sites in China so that their work and expertise could be use for U.S. programs. So it wasn't just Germans who got the privilege of the U.S. (and allies) to turn a blind eye to the things they did during the war.
To the victors go the spoils....it's that way at the conclusion of every war. And that applies to weapons, riches, or even valuable people if it benefits your nation as a whole. It doesn't have to be ethically justified. War isn't ethical. And it was clear to the leaders at that time that the U.S. was about to enter a stand-off with what would become the Soviet Union. You can't afford to always stand on ethical ground when the survival of your nation is threatened by a Cold War against a nation that very well has the capability to erase you from the planet. I'm sure there were plenty of people at the time that didn't like the decisions made with Paperclip, but realized in the end it was a necessary evil that needed to be done.
If I remember correctly, the U.S. refused to prosecute certain Japanese scientists that performed massive war crimes at biological research sites in China so that their work and expertise could be use for U.S. programs. So it wasn't just Germans who got the privilege of the U.S. (and allies) to turn a blind eye to the things they did during the war.
To the victors go the spoils....it's that way at the conclusion of every war. And that applies to weapons, riches, or even valuable people if it benefits your nation as a whole. It doesn't have to be ethically justified. War isn't ethical. And it was clear to the leaders at that time that the U.S. was about to enter a stand-off with what would become the Soviet Union. You can't afford to always stand on ethical ground when the survival of your nation is threatened by a Cold War against a nation that very well has the capability to erase you from the planet. I'm sure there were plenty of people at the time that didn't like the decisions made with Paperclip, but realized in the end it was a necessary evil that needed to be done.
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Funny aside Billy, at the Potsdam conference, Truman aludded to Stalin that the US had developed a 'super bomb' that could end hostilities with the Japanese.
Stalin didn't even blink, like so, I know that.
As it turns out Russian spys had infiltrated the the Manhattan project almost at inception, and were reporting to the Kremlin on a regular basis...
Sorry commie bastids!
Stalin didn't even blink, like so, I know that.
As it turns out Russian spys had infiltrated the the Manhattan project almost at inception, and were reporting to the Kremlin on a regular basis...
Sorry commie bastids!
Very true fitty. Truman and the U.S. thought that would be a huge card to play in negotiations at the conference, but ended up being a non factor. Truman mentioned it, Stalin didn't react, and the conference pretty much moved on without missing a beat.
It just hit me, and none too soon...
New T shirt idea...
BABY BOOMER SOONER!
Oh yeah, that resonates!
New T shirt idea...
BABY BOOMER SOONER!
Oh yeah, that resonates!
I spent 7 years in Frankfurt with the USAF from 1993-2000 working on the airfield...not quite every time, but well more than half, when we would start a new construction project on the airfield, or on another part of the base, they would find unexploded WWII ordnance dropped by the Allies underground.
We bombed the living shit out of that country (N Vietnam, too). This was before precision guided munitions were invented, and the AF was still using box formations to accomplish bombing missions. It was normal to send 24 bombers in formation to bomb a single target...and despite those numbers, they still missed the target. A lot.
That's pretty cool man you were there at Rhein-Main when I came thru it a handful of times. I was stationed at Büchel AB from 1998-2000.
Nice...yes, I was - I did a year at Bitburg AB during the Desert Shield/Storm (I know, got lucky), and then did 7 more at Rhein-Main from 93-00 right as they drew it down...Was there during the air bridge stuff in Yugoslavia and Hungary. We probably corssed paths a couple of times lol.
I also read somewhere that when you built a new bldg in w Germany you had to invest in a demolition fund so they wouldn't end up w a bunch of old bldgs from failed business, etc.
