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What I hate about basketball...

veritas59

Sooner starter
Gold Member
Nov 1, 2003
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It takes too damned long to play the last few minutes of the game. If I could make one change to the rules, it would be to allow the team receiving a foul (assuming they're in the bonus), to choose between shooting free throws or inbounding the ball with a fresh shot clock. The game, as it is, is damned near unwatchable for me.
 
The OP's point is spot on and one of the biggest flaws of basketball generally but particularly the college game.

That said, we made our FTs down the stretch and there's no such thing as an ugly win that carries OU into the Sweet Sixteen.
 
I've been saying that for a long time. Would love to see the fouled team have the option to take the ball out of bounds. That takes some pressure off the man inbounding the ball. He can inbound to a poor FT shooter without worrying about missing free throws.
 
Originally posted by Drewcristo78:
As long as we are the ones shooting free throws and making them, I don't mind!
That has nothing to do with it. I'm referring to "the" game of basketball, not "a" game of basketball. I can't even watch it anymore, regardless of who is playing. You have 35-37 minutes of basketball, followed by a 30 minute free throw contest. It sucks.
 
Yeah, I get that too.

I've got this trick where I record all of them on DVR, then I stop watching with about ten minutes left. When I'm satisfied that I'll like the 'ending', I'll play it back allowing me to scroll through the minutiae at my discretion.

It's a beautiful thing man...
laugh.r191677.gif
 
I too find it frustrating that it takes so long to play the last two minutes of a game, especially if OU is on right after the game that has become a free throw shooting contest. Despite my own selfish intentions, I've also come to appreciate the chess game between the coaches at the end of a game. Slowing it down by using time outs and committing fouls to force the other team to make their free throws allows the trailing team a chance to come from behind and win it in the end. On the other hand, if you've got the lead and have good free throw shooters, the frequent trips to the foul line allows you to add to the lead or keeps the other team at arm's length long enough for the game clock to run down.

However, I do like the idea of allowing the team that was fouled to give them the option to shoot free throws or let them in-bounds the ball. I don't like the idea of giving them a fresh 35 seconds on the game clock because the trailing team would almost never have a chance to come from behind if they keep fouling and the other team gets to keep in-bounding the ball. If you think watching a free throw contest sucks, just watching Team A repeatedly foul and Team B just keeps in-bounding the ball would be beyond boring. Maybe if you gave them 10 seconds after a foul, it would be much more interesting.
 
Right on V!! I'm like most any Sooner fan in that I enjoy keeping up with the basketball team and love it when they are having a great season. It's a pretty special season right now with OU getting into the Sweet 16. But I'm like you, I really can't stand to watch basketball as a whole. And like you said, the last handful of minutes of games is just brutal. I very much like your idea of giving the team the option of what to do instead of forcing them to take the free throws.
 
Originally posted by Schoonerman:
I've also come to appreciate the chess game between the coaches at the end of a game. Slowing it down by using time outs and committing fouls to force the other team to make their free throws allows the trailing team a chance to come from behind and win it in the end.
This is it right here. Chess.
I take it veritas doesn't like baseball either. It's basically an entire game of free throw shots.
 
Originally posted by Schoonerman:
I too find it frustrating that it takes so long to play the last two minutes of a game, especially if OU is on right after the game that has become a free throw shooting contest. Despite my own selfish intentions, I've also come to appreciate the chess game between the coaches at the end of a game. Slowing it down by using time outs and committing fouls to force the other team to make their free throws allows the trailing team a chance to come from behind and win it in the end. On the other hand, if you've got the lead and have good free throw shooters, the frequent trips to the foul line allows you to add to the lead or keeps the other team at arm's length long enough for the game clock to run down.

However, I do like the idea of allowing the team that was fouled to give them the option to shoot free throws or let them in-bounds the ball. I don't like the idea of giving them a fresh 35 seconds on the game clock because the trailing team would almost never have a chance to come from behind if they keep fouling and the other team gets to keep in-bounding the ball. If you think watching a free throw contest sucks, just watching Team A repeatedly foul and Team B just keeps in-bounding the ball would be beyond boring. Maybe if you gave them 10 seconds after a foul, it would be much more interesting.
I could go along with these suggestions. Make them make an offensive move. The NBA only gives a 14 second shot clock if a foul, kicked ball, etc happens with the shot clock below 14. I could go for that. I just hate the last two minutes, literally taking 20-30 minutes to play.
 
Originally posted by JConXtsy:

Originally posted by Schoonerman:
I've also come to appreciate the chess game between the coaches at the end of a game. Slowing it down by using time outs and committing fouls to force the other team to make their free throws allows the trailing team a chance to come from behind and win it in the end.
This is it right here. Chess.
I take it veritas doesn't like baseball either. It's basically an entire game of free throw shots.
I love baseball, but it's a whole different animal. The game isn't regulated by a clock; you play until you're out of outs. Even so, they've taken steps to speed up the game in MLB this year.

And I'm not saying what you should or shouldn't like; just giving an opinion of why I don't like it and what I'd change to make it better. Interestingly enough, I threw this out there at work today (I work in Lawrence, KS now, so there is a slight interest in basketball) and, almost to a person, they agreed that the last few minutes of the game can be brutal to watch.

No facts in my argument-just my opinion.
 
Originally posted by BillyRay:
Right on V!! I'm like most any Sooner fan in that I enjoy keeping up with the basketball team and love it when they are having a great season. It's a pretty special season right now with OU getting into the Sweet 16. But I'm like you, I really can't stand to watch basketball as a whole. And like you said, the last handful of minutes of games is just brutal. I very much like your idea of giving the team the option of what to do instead of forcing them to take the free throws.
There has been a rule for at least three decades that when you foul intentionally, that the fouled team gets two free throws and the ball out of bounds. And it is supposed to, by rule, be enforced.

But there is a disconnect between rules makers and everybody else involved in the game. The official that calls those obviously intentional fouls to be intentional fouls, won't be an official for very long.

Coaches want the opportunity to come from behind. Fans want their team to have the opportunity to come from behind. Really the only people that don't like the rules the way they are now, are those fans of the team that is ahead by six points in the last two minutes. Or eight. Or four points. Or anywhere in something considered striking distance.

There had been occasional talk over the years of allowing a coach to nullify a trip to the line by his worst shooter, but taking the ball out of bounds. The rules committee's response to that two decades ago, was to give automatic two shots on common fouls starting with the tenth team foul of the half. In the old days, when all common fouls beginning with the seventh team foul, were one-and-one, it was even more worthy to commit intentional fouls when trailing at the end of the game.

These days, the attitude is, shut up and make your free throws. It's one reason, why most of the time, guards dominate in college basketball.
 
totally agree with the idea of this thread. the last 2 mins of a game can be down right painful to watch when the trailing team is fouling. I could live with a rule change of SOME SORT....or..simply enforce the "intentional foul" rule the other poster discussed. I mean...if everyone in the building KNOWS the defender is going to foul the FIRST guy to receive the in-bounds...then...how is that NOT intentional?? Start enforcing that rule and the problem would be over. Or...they could shorten the shot clock. That would help some. I can still remember the days BEFORE the shot clock...and you'd see some team get up by 7 points or so (with 12 mins left in the game) and they would go into the "four corners" offense....simply passing the ball to burn clock, with no intention of scoring unless it was a open lay-up. Ouch....that was pure torture.
 
Agree: there should be a higher price to pay for committing fouls in the last 2 minutes of a game. The option of taking the ball out of bounds is not a bad idea. Maybe the team that's fouled should have 3 shots to make 2; or 3 shots period. Or maybe they shoot the foul shots but in addition automatically run off 10 seconds from the clock. Or you get one shot, but also possession on any foul in the last 2 minutes. Or shoot the foul shots, followed by a jump ball. Or any foul in the backcourt is deemed a deliberate foul.
 
Originally posted by Plainosooner:

There has been a rule for at least three decades that when you foul intentionally, that the fouled team gets two free throws and the ball out of bounds. And it is supposed to, by rule, be enforced.
That's a twisted understanding of the intentional foul. The intentional foul actually had its nomenclature changed in the 2011-2012 season to "Flagrant 1" because of the misleading title of the foul. Most people assumed that it was anything intentional based on the name, but that was never the intent of the rule, so they renamed it.

A Flagrant 1 as defined by the 2014-2015 NCAA Rules book:

Personal foul- Flagrant 1. (Rule 4-15.2.c.1). It is a flagrant 1 personal foul to
cause excessive contact with an opponent.


Flagrant 1 personal foul. A flagrant 1 personal foul is a personal foul that
is deemed excessive in nature and/or unnecessary, but is not based solely
on the severity of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to:

1. Causing excessive contact with an opponent;

2. Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball or player,
specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting;

3. Pushing or holding a player from behind to prevent a score;
4. Fouling a player clearly away from the ball who is not directly
involved with the play, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock
from starting; and
5. Contact with a player making a throw-in.

6. Illegal contact caused by swinging of an elbow which is deemed
excessive or unnecessary but does not rise to the level of a flagrant 2
personal foul (see Rule 4-18.7)
So there is no longer a foul called an "Intentional Foul" although it's ruling has not changed. It's just called a Flagrant 1 now.




This post was edited on 3/24 9:05 AM by JConXtsy
 
Originally posted by veritas59:

And I'm not saying what you should or shouldn't like; just giving an opinion of why I don't like it and what I'd change to make it better. Interestingly enough, I threw this out there at work today (I work in Lawrence, KS now, so there is a slight interest in basketball) and, almost to a person, they agreed that the last few minutes of the game can be brutal to watch.

No facts in my argument-just my opinion.
I hear you. I don't watch a lot of college ball. I know you're saying basketball in general, but I don't see it much in pro basketball. It's not a good strategy in the pros unless it's against like 3 or 4 players in the entire league. Basically, a player has to shoot worse than the average field goal percentage of a team for it to make sense. That's like 45%. There are only a couple of players that shoot worse than 45% that are on the floor in crunch time in the NBA.

In pros, you don't get intentional fouling until about the final minute of the game, and then it's usually just a prayer. The game doesn't slow down terribly because of it. I assume pros are better shooters than collegiate players, so maybe it happens with more time on the clock and more frequently in college.

My biggest beef with college ball - other than their ability to run smooth, efficient offenses - is the 35 second shot clock. That is just brutal to watch when you're used to 24. It's far more annoying to me to watch a point guard get the ball over the half court line just to stand vertical and proceed to have a conversation with their coach about what they're going to do now. And this goes on the whole game.

I like the abbreviated shot clock. Point guards become on the court coaches in the pros, or the coach is hurriedly getting his playcalling in while the ball is being inbounded. There's not much stoppage in the flow of the basketball.

I think I could watch more college ball if they changed the shot clock.
 
The college game is not what it used to be. These days, the greatest second and even third year players used to be great juniors and seniors in college.

It has nade the gap between the quality of play in the NBA and college ball a lot wider. The flip side is that there are just generally more talented guys.

But the intentional foul was even written about, formerly, as addressing the fouling at the end of games.I have not read a rule book in more than a decade. But for years, the intentional foul rule was specifically about end of game situations. Now, I suspect the flagrant rule you addresed is mostly about breakaway situations, trying to eliminate the uncontested layup.

At the end, you still have to make some play for the ball.

The flip side, at least last night in the OU v Stanford game was that OU was actually going for steals, but the first attempt was called a foul without giving them a chance to double to try to steal the ball. The whistles anticipated a coming foul.

The ACC was the starting place for this end of game strategy, especially Dean Smith. Jim Valvano won an NC by fouling the Houston point guard Alvin Franklin, witha minute left in a tie game. And with two ACC officials working the game, they ignored the rule and fFranklin missed the front end of the one and one stting up the finish we have all seen many times.

Valvano s team used that same strategy throughout the tounament. Worst officiated NC game I have ever seen.

So this fouling strategy has been around for more than three decades. If they have not gotten rid of it by now, I would think it is unlikely to change any time soon.
 
Originally posted by Plainosooner:

But the intentional foul was even written about, formerly, as addressing the fouling at the end of games.I have not read a rule book in more than a decade. But for years, the intentional foul rule was specifically about end of game situations.
That could be. I don't know how to find old rule books, but as documented in the rule book, the current Flagrant 1 is written exactly as the Intentional Foul was written before it. There wasn't a change to the previous rule, just the name.

I did find an anecdotal statement from the NBCA that said the renaming of the intentional foul to a flagrant foul because the name gave the impression that the foul dealt with "intent, and that was never the intention of the rule."

I linked the current rule book, although that's obviously no good for history. Reading it though, I was a bit impressed by the number of minor, time-related and other ticky tacky rules that officials are required to know. I watch a lot of basketball and figured I would know 99% of the rules, but that's not the case. There are quite a few rules in there that I have never seen called or talked about although I'm sure they are monitored.

To read it, you have to choose "Download PDF (FREE)".

NCAA Rule Book
 
I was always a rulesnik. When I decided to give it up, I had been asked to consider teaching rules the next year in the Dallas chapter. The expanations of rules were usually in two places. They were either in the prefaces in the actual rule books, in either the details of new rules or in the points of emphasis. Or mostly, they were in the separate book that gave an endless list of game situations called the Case Book.

I usually started reading the list of somewhere between 18 and 21 Fundamentals of The Rules in the rule book itself. If you mastered that, then the specificules were pretty easy to understand as the logical consequence of the fundamental. And then the definitions.

One call that is commonly missed based on the fundamentals, is that it is impossible to travel during a dribble. And what starts a dribble and how a dribble ends. Stuff like that seems insgnificant, but the opposite is true.
 
Originally posted by Plainosooner:
I was always a rulesnik. When I decided to give it up, I had been asked to consider teaching rules the next year in the Dallas chapter. The expanations of rules were usually in two places. They were either in the prefaces in the actual rule books, in either the details of new rules or in the points of emphasis. Or mostly, they were in the separate book that gave an endless list of game situations called the Case Book.

I usually started reading the list of somewhere between 18 and 21 Fundamentals of The Rules in the rule book itself. If you mastered that, then the specificules were pretty easy to understand as the logical consequence of the fundamental. And then the definitions.

One call that is commonly missed based on the fundamentals, is that it is impossible to travel during a dribble. And what starts a dribble and how a dribble ends. Stuff like that seems insgnificant, but the opposite is true.
It's really amazing.

This is one of the biggest arguing points that soccer fans have towards our American sports.

The FIFA "Laws of the Game" are only 54 pages (not counting the section on "interpretation") and several are illustrations/photos. I think about 2/3 of those pages are just measurements, jerseys, ball type, etc.
This NCAA BBall Rules book has 98 pages before the appendix.
The NBA rule book is 66 pages (why is it shorter than the NCAA rules book?).
The NFL rule book is 107 pages.
 
I don't think I'd be holding up soccer as some sort of rule objective to emulate. I don't know of many basketball officials who have been assassinated because they screwed up a game. That happens some in soccer.

You have only one referee in a soccer game. He has an autonomy that I don't think any of us would like to see in American sports. He calls what he wants to, and passes on what he wants to. And if somebody is made enough to make the disagreement known, then he cards them.

Soccer players are known to flop and roll on the ground in agony, and then get up to start running around.

The thing about American sports is that we expect some accountability from our sports officials and we hate it when our team is negatively affected by subjectivity in the way the game is called. That means some more details in the rule book.

One reason that college sport have longer rule books is because you don't have some sort of overseeing officiating regulatory group. Each conference is responsible for it's own officials. Most use a handful of official assigners, who are very behind the scenes. There used to be a guy named Dale Kelly who did a lot of assigning of officials in major conferences. Another guy, named Tony Stigliano did the same task for lesser conferences local to Texas ad adjoining states.

You went to those guys' camps, paid to be there, and kissed their, uh, feet to create some sort of homage, You wanted to work college ball and you were from Texas, you did whatever was necessary to make Tony happy. I don't know if either of those guys still have those jobs. But they were not part of any specific conference affiliation. It was more like a guy that gave them a separateness about specific assignments, but also allowed for feedback about whose work they liked and whose they didn't. Kelly served a higher purpose. Back then, which was close to two decades ago, you were paid $500 for a men's game in a major conference plus maybe close to that in travel expenses for plane trips and a hotel room.

The point in relating all of this was that there were guys like that in several locations around the country. And each had their own conference administrators to make happy. But each conference has its own preference. Back then, the BEast wanted a no blood, no foul approach and those were the kinds of officials that got those games.

Other conferences had their own preferences. And anyone who thinks that a little politics isn't involved, don't really understand. And officials who are at the top of all that, understand the politics of it. It is part of why a rule book needs a lot of explanation.

But each conference has things they want emphasized. And the best officials will do the same basic things. THey will protect the shooter, they will clean up post play. They will pass on the marginal call that doesn't affect a play's advantage / disadvantage. And they will play the role they're there to play. An old saying, "If you are U2, don't forget that you're U2." What that basically means is that if you are at the bottom of the totem pole, you understand that the guy tossing the ball is your senior official, who is more experienced and usually more trusted. In your pregame, if he tells you not to call three seconds ever, then you'd better not do it. If he thinks it needs to be called, he'll call it.

And unlike football crews these days, you are not a crew. You are assigned to each game individually. So you have to find a way to mesh with the other guys on your crew. What any particular play requires a foul be called is very subjective. It's a lot more about advantage than amount of contact. But that crew, that night, really needs to try to call the same thing.

Having explicitly explained specifics can be really useful in this task. It is a lot better recently with some nationally stressed rules expectations, about defensive players using their hands in certain specific ways. The way that the NCAA got the attention of officials, was those who wouldn't comply with the new limitations were excluded from NCAA tournament games. It worked. Now arm bars are called pretty consistently.

Play has been cleaned up. Most muggings get called. The game is more fun to watch. You still have guys who allow more contact, but they mostly take seriously the need to allow less contact. One of the reasons that the rule book for college athletics has to be so wordy, is to get to the heads of officials, the ideas that will get them to overcome their attitudes of "my game, my call," and try to get most of the guys from different areas of the country, to call something a lot closer to the same game.

Some of the best officials quit officiated because they wanted to call their game and wouldn't change and it negatively affected their assignments.

Same thing happened in the NBA with guys like Jake O'Donnell. He used to be a common name in game sevens. A year later, he was on the outside looking in. Sometimes, it takes some pretty drastic means to get officials to call the game, the way it ought to be called.
 
Final Two Minutes of the game rule changes:

if fouled in the backcourt and in the bonus, make 2 free throws, get a third bonus free throw.

if fouled in the backcourt and in the double bonus, 3 free throws and run the clock equivalent to a :10 violation. For example, receive the inbound pass and get fouled immediately, the a :10 clock runoff is included. Or receive the inbound pass, and after several steal attempts a foul occurs after :04, then a :06 runoff. This might encourage teams to attempt steals before fouling, which is good. The clock runoff would equal getting the ball across the timeline and being fouled immediately. Being fouled in the backcourt grants the third free throw.
 
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