OU Football team issues a Statement
- Thread starter WhyNotaSooner
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WNAS...I was just getting ready to post this, also. It's from a different source and has additional comments from Joe C. I hope you don't mind my piggy-backing it onto your thread. Good Read, Indeed!
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2394413-oklahoma-football-players-athletic-director-comment-on-racist-fraternity-chant?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=programming-national
My Takeaway is that there will be no more practice until after Spring Break...IMO, the timing is good on the Holiday...Hopefully, it will allow this Boiling Pot to Simmer Down...
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2394413-oklahoma-football-players-athletic-director-comment-on-racist-fraternity-chant?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=programming-national
My Takeaway is that there will be no more practice until after Spring Break...IMO, the timing is good on the Holiday...Hopefully, it will allow this Boiling Pot to Simmer Down...
It is my strong belief that until this issue ceases to be a one way issue, and those on both sides admit shortcomings and confess and ask forgiveness, that any action will be hollow. Until we cease to call N word use, the one unforgivable sin and cease a culture where it's okay for black students to use it, and promote a rap culture, with strong African American roots to, that seems to make common the advocating of mistreatment of police and women, then the one sidedness of the conversation will be nearly meaningless.
African Americans seem to want to have it both ways on multiple levels. And while the rap culture promoting such free speech notions is not close to black, it is multi racial, if one wants to condemn N word use, let's condemn it across the board. Otherwise, the selectivity reeks of something only emotional and with no real basis other than it's okay for me to hurt your feelings, but not okay for you to hurt mine.
I'm not trying to minimize the disgusting nature of the video. But the subject matter is not the only horribly disgusting actions in our culture. The rest though want to hide under the guise of constitutionally protected free speech.
When I referenced this imbalance earlier in the week, I was surprised that several responded that I was promoting censorship. Really? If this is about misuse of free speech, then let's not limit the discussion to one horrible activity.
And the idea seemingly promoted in the football team's statement, that it was right to kick out of their secured housing, even those in the fraternity that did nothing wrong, other that be a fraternity member is more than a little troublesome.
I cannot imagine an issue, where anyone would advocate throwing people who are associated with someone who does a sub felony sin, out of their living space. Yet doing it to white guys seems to be well okay, because the Nword taboo was violated. Logic and reason has been tossed aside. And it usually is when decisions are made strictly on the basis of an emotional basis, mostly seeking political ends.
African Americans seem to want to have it both ways on multiple levels. And while the rap culture promoting such free speech notions is not close to black, it is multi racial, if one wants to condemn N word use, let's condemn it across the board. Otherwise, the selectivity reeks of something only emotional and with no real basis other than it's okay for me to hurt your feelings, but not okay for you to hurt mine.
I'm not trying to minimize the disgusting nature of the video. But the subject matter is not the only horribly disgusting actions in our culture. The rest though want to hide under the guise of constitutionally protected free speech.
When I referenced this imbalance earlier in the week, I was surprised that several responded that I was promoting censorship. Really? If this is about misuse of free speech, then let's not limit the discussion to one horrible activity.
And the idea seemingly promoted in the football team's statement, that it was right to kick out of their secured housing, even those in the fraternity that did nothing wrong, other that be a fraternity member is more than a little troublesome.
I cannot imagine an issue, where anyone would advocate throwing people who are associated with someone who does a sub felony sin, out of their living space. Yet doing it to white guys seems to be well okay, because the Nword taboo was violated. Logic and reason has been tossed aside. And it usually is when decisions are made strictly on the basis of an emotional basis, mostly seeking political ends.
It appears from the player's statement and your statement Plaino, that they disagree with your assessment. I agree with some of your post but wow, openly stating 'hanging from a tree' from white kid's is a far cry from a black kid in the calling another black kid the N word. Neither is good in my books. One is incredibly wrong, the other as a white guy myself, I'll never really understand or comprehend. Although IMO both have completely different meanings and associations that are attached to them.
The team appears to be hunkering down, circling the wagons, and drawing closer in support of one another. I like this. A unity of all is a good thing and if it transfers to the field it's even a better thing. It also appears that they feel they can't trust outsiders and they want to overcome this. I wish them the best.
As far as the chapter being closed and the members tossed to the streets, I personally have no issue with this. As it looks like that Boren also took into consideration their past problems. His actions were swift and he made the choice to do so w/o the use of his kangaroo court proceedings that was employed on Shannon.
The team appears to be hunkering down, circling the wagons, and drawing closer in support of one another. I like this. A unity of all is a good thing and if it transfers to the field it's even a better thing. It also appears that they feel they can't trust outsiders and they want to overcome this. I wish them the best.
As far as the chapter being closed and the members tossed to the streets, I personally have no issue with this. As it looks like that Boren also took into consideration their past problems. His actions were swift and he made the choice to do so w/o the use of his kangaroo court proceedings that was employed on Shannon.
So, you are more worried about the team's unity and how that translates onto the field?
I find that disturbing as football takes a back seat to this cause.
This issue is about the root of many angles that need to be fixed around the N word and other terms of offense.
One has been fixed, e.g. SAE booted for their horrid song and students being expelled.
The other is still pending, e.g. the flamboyant money grabbers sensationalizing the N word and other terms of offense by anybody of any color on any campus.
Stop that as well.
OU students are working to educate themselves to better their futures. I just hope they better their communities inclusive of all colors. Don't invite or partake in celebrating through song words of bigotry, hatred, gross disrespect of any gender, race, color or religion, regardless of their context.
Sure freedom of expression allows for it and I have no problem with that. But, those truly interested in uniting their campuses or communities should not tolerate acts that don't accomplish the end goal.
The N word users and other terms of offense can't have their cake and eat it too imho.
I like the unity but they aren't going to get any better if they don't actually PRACTICE. They need to shake this off and get back to work. Boren has taken charge and is doing a good job.
Yes people have freedom of speech, but it's also up to the university if they want those people who say incredibly stupid and racist things associated with their university.
And you seem to think only whites have to pay for what they say, then maybe you forgot about the Josh Jarboe situation.
Medic007
Sooner starter
Lots of interesting thoughts expressed.
I linked an article that indicates that part of the fallout is the targeting of the Greek community in general. Being in Norman I've heard there have been incidents of vandalism and physical threats. I haven't heard anything about people getting jumped though. If any of these reported allegations are true, they are just as disgusting as the video. Using property destruction and violence to send your message, like what happened in Ferguson, creates further divide and contributes to the problem.
I'm from the school that learning basic respect of others eliminates a lot of problems.
Interesting read
I linked an article that indicates that part of the fallout is the targeting of the Greek community in general. Being in Norman I've heard there have been incidents of vandalism and physical threats. I haven't heard anything about people getting jumped though. If any of these reported allegations are true, they are just as disgusting as the video. Using property destruction and violence to send your message, like what happened in Ferguson, creates further divide and contributes to the problem.
I'm from the school that learning basic respect of others eliminates a lot of problems.
Interesting read
I could be wrong, but I don't think Jarboe was kicked off the team for using the N word. I think Plaino is trying to say there is a double standard and that both sides, black and white, must be held accountable and do better.
He didn't use the N word, but he was removed from the team since his rap was content that Boren didn't want associated with OU. Same thing here. People can say whatever they want. That is protected in the 1st Amendment. But it's also the right of a university, or others to not want to be associated with you because of it.
I think Plaino was referring to racial slurs, etc. Anyway, I support the university in what they have done so far. I just think its time to move on and to quit dragging this out for weeks. Those involved have been punished
Prolly so, but the Jarboe situation shows there are consequences for both races for saying stupid things. And I've watched this video, and the context the N word is being used, it's hard to compare it to when blacks use the word in everyday terms.
So you think its okay for whites to use the word as long as its in a different context? My point is that they continuously want to tell everyone how its the worst word in the English language, yet they turn around and use it on a daily basis. You can't have it both ways
Soonersincefitty
Sooner starter
BW2000, a little sage advise...
While I admire your argument, if you are a western European descent white guy, you've already lost this battle dude.
Cut your losses and never bring this up again...
Sorry, it's true...you know it is...
While I admire your argument, if you are a western European descent white guy, you've already lost this battle dude.
Cut your losses and never bring this up again...
Sorry, it's true...you know it is...
I must admit that I consider the "but they say it, why can't we" argument as about as silly as you can get.
It is not uncommon for any group to use a term used by others to be derogatory as a sense of sarcasm or disgust. Okies refer to themselves as Okies. But, it wasn't exactly a term they wanted to hear when it was used by someone else. I remember people who would now be about 100 who bristled at the term Okie because of the way that it had been used. I doubt that they even used it themselves. Yet, others would use it in a sense of sarcastic contempt among those who belonged together because others had placed them in such a situation.
Women call each other by names that I can assure you will get you thrown out of the house if you use them. Within any group, there may be terms that can be used by members of that group, but are considered derogatory if used by someone who has ever exhibited derision for that group.
Find another argument.
It is not uncommon for any group to use a term used by others to be derogatory as a sense of sarcasm or disgust. Okies refer to themselves as Okies. But, it wasn't exactly a term they wanted to hear when it was used by someone else. I remember people who would now be about 100 who bristled at the term Okie because of the way that it had been used. I doubt that they even used it themselves. Yet, others would use it in a sense of sarcastic contempt among those who belonged together because others had placed them in such a situation.
Women call each other by names that I can assure you will get you thrown out of the house if you use them. Within any group, there may be terms that can be used by members of that group, but are considered derogatory if used by someone who has ever exhibited derision for that group.
Find another argument.
Medic007
Sooner starter
The N word use discussion is relevant, but I think it's actually a very minor part of this incident. It's what most seem to be focusing on, but the part about hanging and the blatant discrimination the chant conveyed is what set Pres Boren off.
Had it just been the N word, I believe those boys would still be in school and the fraternity still in business. The hanging reference and the blunt reference to discrimination led to the hostile environment charge.
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Had it just been the N word, I believe those boys would still be in school and the fraternity still in business. The hanging reference and the blunt reference to discrimination led to the hostile environment charge.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
This is what I agree with as well. Using the N word certainly wouldn't be good, but it's the extreme derogatory manner in which they used it makes it easy to assess they meant it in an extreme racist sense.
I agree Medic. However, it was still done by a few dumb kids and certainly doesn't represent OU or Oklahoma. Now I hear the frat is suing Boren and the university for dismantling them at OU. I think they may have a case.
Another good point that was brought up is how can they give Mixon another chance yet not not do the same for these two students? Unlike them, Mixon actually hurt someone physically. Not saying I agree or disagree but it seems like a good point.
Another good point that was brought up is how can they give Mixon another chance yet not not do the same for these two students? Unlike them, Mixon actually hurt someone physically. Not saying I agree or disagree but it seems like a good point.
Actually, I think the two situations are completely different. The frat boy chant reinforces exclusionary of blacks simply because of their skin color. It blatantly says the black will never get into SAE. Which is a civil right violation. Not so with the Mixon case. Although a punch was thrown, a doozy at that, ironically it's been said that a racial slur was used here too.
Legally, Boren may be challenged. He may lose a potential lawsuit in the process. But OU's brand has taken a huge, huge hit. Defending the brand against racism is a fight worthy of fighting and at all costs. IMO, it comes down to the name or brand of OU. When it comes to what's the worse of the two evils, frat boys chanting racism vs Mixon hits girl. I'd say the racial chants are the worse of the two.
I honestly don't see how anyone could say a verbal chant done by a few dumb kids is worse than a man hitting and injuring a woman.
Medic007
Sooner starter
BW, Mixon didn't hit the girl because she was a girl or because she was white. If you think that Mixon is the only OU student involved in such an incident last year you'd be very wrong. And similarly, if you think Mixon was the only student with a criminal case that didn't get expelled you'd be dead wrong. There is a relationship between the University and the student in regards to criminal incidents, but unless it occurs on OU property, the University has minimal involvement based on the nature of the crime. Mixon's actions did not potentially create a hostile environment at the University. Had he not been a football player, you would have never heard about it.
The fraternity is an independent organization that has a formal agreement with the University. The agreement outlines expectations for both parties of the agreement. A large part of those agreements addresses adherence to policies and rules. Members representing the fraternity were clearly in violation of policies and rules. The University took action against the fraternity for those violations. It is of importance to note that the National SAE suspended the chapter for policy and rule violations, so they were booted as a fraternity at OU even if OU took no action.
Regarding the housing issue and the house being closed by OU, the SAE house is one of only two in the OU Greek system on OU property and owned by OU. OU would not have been able to physically shutter the house and evict all of the residents had it been one of the many owned by alumni organizations off campus property.
In regards to the expulsion of the two students, although I know they were in violation of the code of conduct, I'm not sure it would stand up to legal challenge unless they were on OU property or representing OU at the time of the incident. It was the right thing to do though in light of the situation their behavior caused.
The attempt to compare the two in the eyes of actions and respective punishment has no logic.
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The fraternity is an independent organization that has a formal agreement with the University. The agreement outlines expectations for both parties of the agreement. A large part of those agreements addresses adherence to policies and rules. Members representing the fraternity were clearly in violation of policies and rules. The University took action against the fraternity for those violations. It is of importance to note that the National SAE suspended the chapter for policy and rule violations, so they were booted as a fraternity at OU even if OU took no action.
Regarding the housing issue and the house being closed by OU, the SAE house is one of only two in the OU Greek system on OU property and owned by OU. OU would not have been able to physically shutter the house and evict all of the residents had it been one of the many owned by alumni organizations off campus property.
In regards to the expulsion of the two students, although I know they were in violation of the code of conduct, I'm not sure it would stand up to legal challenge unless they were on OU property or representing OU at the time of the incident. It was the right thing to do though in light of the situation their behavior caused.
The attempt to compare the two in the eyes of actions and respective punishment has no logic.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
B-dub,
One is a group (sanctioned by the university) demonstrating stating that an entire race of people would be excluded,
the other is two individuals in a personal brawl.
entire race > one face
But each to their own.
One is a group (sanctioned by the university) demonstrating stating that an entire race of people would be excluded,
the other is two individuals in a personal brawl.
entire race > one face
But each to their own.
It wasn't a group wnas. It was a few individuals. IMO opinion, Mixon injuring a woman by hitting her in the face is much worse.
I just don't see how you can punish the entire fraternity for what a few of its members did. What if it had been a few football team members that had made such a video. Do you think they would do away with football at OU? The whole thing hints at self righteousness and hypocrisy.
Soonersincefitty
Sooner starter
Well, BW, Boren had the white hot scrutiny of the entire world looking upon to see what he was going to do about that video thing.
Perhaps he came across to some as a wee bit heavy handed in what he did, then again and to his credit he didn't have the SAE building razed to the ground, which was certainly in his purview to do also.
Perhaps he came across to some as a wee bit heavy handed in what he did, then again and to his credit he didn't have the SAE building razed to the ground, which was certainly in his purview to do also.
General question: what's the equally incendiary term of the N word to refer to white guys?
The ironic thing for me is that if this weren't a bunch of SAE douche bags, and instead, it's the OU chapter (or UT chapter, the actual school doesn't matter) of the National Association for the Advancement of White People, would it arouse the same level of outrage? Or would people simply shrug and chalk it up as a bunch of hicks looking for a little media attention? I certainly understand the outrage, but I'm trying to reconcile where it comes from and why we're more pissed at these entitled white dudes over some rednecks.
Full disclosure. I'm of Asian descent, so I don't truly have a dog in this fight. We're the emasculated model minority that play by the rules and don't ever rock the boat.
The ironic thing for me is that if this weren't a bunch of SAE douche bags, and instead, it's the OU chapter (or UT chapter, the actual school doesn't matter) of the National Association for the Advancement of White People, would it arouse the same level of outrage? Or would people simply shrug and chalk it up as a bunch of hicks looking for a little media attention? I certainly understand the outrage, but I'm trying to reconcile where it comes from and why we're more pissed at these entitled white dudes over some rednecks.
Full disclosure. I'm of Asian descent, so I don't truly have a dog in this fight. We're the emasculated model minority that play by the rules and don't ever rock the boat.
Soonersincefitty
Sooner starter
Well, therein lies the rub 'shoe...there isn't any derogatory word for whites that would carry the sting that N_____ does for blacks.
Hell, I've been called honky, cracker, whitey, gray dude et al by black fellows...I got over it just about as fast as I would a speed bump. You know...nothing.
That's just the way it is, like it or not.
Hell, I've been called honky, cracker, whitey, gray dude et al by black fellows...I got over it just about as fast as I would a speed bump. You know...nothing.
That's just the way it is, like it or not.
My question is.....what other option(s) did Boren have in this matter ? Clearly his reaction is PR motivated and can be construed as violating free speech First Amendment rights.
I hope I'm as wrong as I have ever been, but I feel that OU has been put unfairly on a collision course for a very turbulent time....and in many ways....for the actions of at least two punks.
This event looks to get even more ugly and divisive and will surely bring out the worst in many people.
I hope I'm as wrong as I have ever been, but I feel that OU has been put unfairly on a collision course for a very turbulent time....and in many ways....for the actions of at least two punks.
This event looks to get even more ugly and divisive and will surely bring out the worst in many people.
Boren tried to get out in front of this and take swift action because he knew it could be a public relations nightmare. Now I think he might should have just expelled the 2 guys in question and had an investigation of the entire fraternity before pulling the plug. He may have caused more harm than good. We'll see
Medic007
Sooner starter
BW, you keep referencing two dudes. While two dudes have actually been identified from the video, there were more than two dudes participating in the chant.
For what it's worth, in my profession, we never believe a story that starts with 2 dudes, 2 beers, or 2 chicks.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
For what it's worth, in my profession, we never believe a story that starts with 2 dudes, 2 beers, or 2 chicks.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
It's not a matter of liking it not liking it. Because there's not an equivalent term for whites, I don't think you can know how demeaning it can make one feel to be called one of those names. Hence people get worked up about it; hence the double standard between races.
Boren did exactly what he had to do after consulting his army of attorneys. The only gray area is the condition in which he expelled the students and the likely repercussions. As I said before, if the two dudes were proud members of the NAAWP and Boren expelled them, then you're probably looking at two soon to be richer dudes. At this point, it's almost for their own protection to force those two kids away from the OU campus.
Also know this, no sane, or emotionally mature person associates this as solely an OU issue. It's a society issue. Maybe it's still more prevalent in the South than anywhere else in the country, but it's not exclusive to Oklahoma.
This post was edited on 3/13 2:14 PM by TexShoe
It was a group. There was chanting, singing and even clapping going on. While the vid spotlighted one or two, there was a rolling party going down the road with very supportive festive peeps on that bus. I'm not sure, but it sounds as if you're saying that's it's alright to clap along and cheer along it as long as you're not actually chanting or at least being caught on camera chanting, then it's a-ok. If this is the case, then I disagree.
There were many more than just guys. Two guys could actually be identified. Further, There is no violation of Freedom of Speech. The University as can an employer remove you. There are consequences to one's behavior. Those two guys can stand in DT Norman and sing away these days and OU can no longer do anything about it as they are no longer part of the campus etc.
I'll also add that one of the two is on record as saying that he was taught the chant by others. I'm sure this is being investigated but it appears that others before him knew of the chant and had past participation of the chant. I'm glad the fraternity is gone. The good eggs in the group, if there are/were any, will find a new exclusionary group to join.
Lastly, I do not understand the arguement presented that, "Blacks use the word against other blacks so what's the big deal?" I don't think I'll ever understand it either as I'm not a black man. I will say this though, I recognize that it is wrong to use the N word and direct it toward anyone, as I know that It's hurtful. And just because others use and say the word does not give me or anyone else the right to do the same. It isn't a double standard thing either unless one is seeking for an excuse and/or reason to use it. If it hurts someone, and you know it's hurtful, then it's just wrong.
It's unquestionably distasteful, but what part of it is illegal to warrant being kicked out of school? Or did the students all sign some kind of code of conduct prior to enrolling, sort of like BYU's student code of conduct. A couple years ago a player got kicked out of school and off the team because he had consensual sex, which is against the school's code of conduct.
Joe Mixon actually committed a crime, or was alleged to have committed a crime. Yet, he remained a student, and people didn't protest his home or put his folks' LinkedIn profile in the newspaper.
Its a legit question whether you play it or not. You can't tell me that there aren't OU players, black and white, that have made racist comments before. Therefore, the hypocrisy and self righteousness. In my opinion, unless they can prove that the leadership of the frat knew, then they can't punish the entire group.
