for our freedoms by paying the ultimate sacrifice. Freedom is Never Free
Happy Memorial Day: Thank you and God bless all who have served
- Thread starter iasooner1
- Start date
Let's honor our fallen soldiers by stopping endless and reckless wars under the guise of "defending our freedoms".
The US government has been getting American service personnel killed in a futile never-ending national-building war in Afghanistan since 2001 (after needlessly invading Iraq) then fought an 8 year war of occupation, withdrew in 2011, and then went back for more foolishness in 2014.
The US is also conducting military operations in Syria, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Niger and perhaps other places that have been kept secret from the American people.
All this without Congressional approval on behalf of the American public.....as it was with Vietnam.....and Korea.
I love our country. I wish our politicians would give it back to us to truly honor those who died and served to have a government that is "of the people, by the people and for the people". This is a wish that I don't feel will ever come true.
The US government has been getting American service personnel killed in a futile never-ending national-building war in Afghanistan since 2001 (after needlessly invading Iraq) then fought an 8 year war of occupation, withdrew in 2011, and then went back for more foolishness in 2014.
The US is also conducting military operations in Syria, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Niger and perhaps other places that have been kept secret from the American people.
All this without Congressional approval on behalf of the American public.....as it was with Vietnam.....and Korea.
I love our country. I wish our politicians would give it back to us to truly honor those who died and served to have a government that is "of the people, by the people and for the people". This is a wish that I don't feel will ever come true.
CT, remember Everyone (almost) in the Congress believed the 'intelligence' and voted yea and approved the action taken against Sadam.
Like Ike said in 1960, beware the vast Military Industrial Complex and we've all seen the disgraceful actions of the FBI in the last 18 months or longer
Like Ike said in 1960, beware the vast Military Industrial Complex and we've all seen the disgraceful actions of the FBI in the last 18 months or longer
The lesson of Vietnam has never been learned and never will be.
The United States military hasn’t been allowed to “really fight” a war/conflict since WWII. Hence, no more victories. I am not even sure we have a military leader today with Sherman’s or Patton’s harsh total war mentality, which both utilized to help win their respective wars in relatively short order.
The US needs to have its military might to defend its own interests, that is, the interest of its citizens....and not to build empires throughout the world. I do not believe it is about being "allowed to fight" as it is being utilizes to defend the country.
Sherman targeted civilians as well as Confederate armies . Patton targeted German armies.
Sherman absolutely targeted cilvilian property that contributed to the Confederate military efforts, but there are no records of large numbers of loss of civilian life. Some, yes, but they were not targeted per sa. Collateral damage happens on all sides during warfare. Patton studied, followed and used Sherman’s tactics. Sherman’s March was brutally effective in shorting the Civil War, which saved lives in the long run. All I’m saying is if we must fight, fight to win. But to your point, I totally agree that America should not be the world’s policeman.
If any enemy combatant takes refuge behind civilians, 'innocents' will be killed. That's a standard fact in any & all conflicts from the beginning of recorded History
Agree.
But history is always written by the winning side....and later, by liberal revisionist historians. So what Sherman's troops did to both the people of the South and their property is well hidden in the history books.
[QUOTE="CTOkie, post: 2202959, member: Agree.
But history is always written by the winning side....and later, by liberal revisionist historians. So what Sherman's troops did to both the people of the South and their property is well hidden in the history books.[/QUOTE]
Well......yeah. Can’t argue that point, so this ends my input on the subject.
LOL. Enjoyed the back and forth, CT.
But history is always written by the winning side....and later, by liberal revisionist historians. So what Sherman's troops did to both the people of the South and their property is well hidden in the history books.[/QUOTE]
Well......yeah. Can’t argue that point, so this ends my input on the subject.
LOL. Enjoyed the back and forth, CT.Well......yeah. Can’t argue that point, so this ends my input on the subject.
LOL. Enjoyed the back and forth, CT.[/QUOTE]Me too. Gotta rack of ribs to cook.
VietNam in HD is on History Channel now. I was just a couple of years too young but was sweating it in 9th & 10th grade. I'm sorry for the friends you lost in that hot mess...
Dad worked at McDonnell/Rockwell testing Hound dog missiles for awhile: '69-'71 were tense times around the dinner table at our house...
My ribs are almost done to perfection
Dad worked at McDonnell/Rockwell testing Hound dog missiles for awhile: '69-'71 were tense times around the dinner table at our house...
My ribs are almost done to perfection
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Thanks to many factors including too much nearly live daily uncensored views of the battlefield, the war was 'lost' at home and the Texsun was emasculated.
We won the war tactically but the South were led by corruption and the ARVN were unable to fight for themselves. Thanks SI
We won the war tactically but the South were led by corruption and the ARVN were unable to fight for themselves. Thanks SI
Nothing fake about the ones who were there fighting and bleeding on either side. To say so is another slap in their faces. Let's pray for peace and an end to the Korean tragedy finally
Do not confuse my criticism of our involvement in Vietnam with any ill feelings of our troops who went over there, my brother being among them. There was nothing fake about the service men and women who were sent there...in an undeclared war that was later proven to be a political folly.
SI did 'We Were Soldiers' come anywhere near capturing the picture of la Drang ?
As a matter of fact it did according to a number of doggies I've talked to. I had nothing to do with la Drang. I was Air Force stationed at Homestead AFB at the time. One thing I wonder about. Col. Moore (Mel Gibson) later changed his tune about the success of his doggies. He later seemed to give more credit to the Cong than he did a while after the battle. I think he hit the ground with about 450 fierce warriors. A deserting captured Cong told Col. Moore the enemy had about 2300 soldiers. They charged like the American bison in waves to be shot.
I often remember standing in formation on a parade field waiting for our orders to be called out by platoons. Viet Nam, Germany, Korea and all points in between. What is the selection process? Who says this guy is going to Viet Nam and this guy is going to Germany? I got Panama Canal Zone and logic behind selection has stayed with me for 47 years.
Similar to my dad in 1940-41. He was in the Oklahoma national guard in 1939-41, got out in 1941. When Pearl Harbor was attacked, he enlisted in the Navy and was sent to San Diego. Inside an airplane hangar they lined everyone up and had a count down. Even numbers went to the Navy, odd numbers went to the Marines. My dad's number was 8....and maybe why I was born 7 years later.
CT, I went to OKC (on demand) knowing I would not return home. I assumed I would be inducted into the army. Once they determined who would be leaving that night they put all of us in a large room and told to line up on the painted shoes prints. Then they went down the line, 1st row Army, 2nd row Marines, 3rd row Army, 4th row Navy and so on. No Air Force. Half went Army. Guys were jumping around trading places to get what they preferred. I stayed in the Army row boarded a bus and was told I was on the Ft. Leonard Wood bus. Some went to Ft. Polk and some to Ft. Campbell. It was chaotic for the next 2 weeks.
My father was in college during the original draft rules and immune to the draft by deferment. He went to graduate school in 1967 and continued his deferment... Then the 1967 Draft Act by LBJ happened. Graduate students now only had 1 year of deferment. My father had finished his first year of graduate school when the Draft Act took effect that June.
Finishing your first year did not count as being a second year student. Even though he had completed his first year, he would not start his second year of graduate school until September when classes began. He was literally a couple of months away from being grandfathered into the old rules and deferred from the draft until he finished graduate school or turned 24. Instead, he was now eligible for the draft and at the top of the list due to the eldest first rules. He received his orders in October of that year and was called to report in early December. He always comments that he was appreciative of all of his professors as they all allowed him to take his finals early that year, so he wouldn't waste that semester of graduate school.
In camp, he was routinely requested to sign-up for NCO school to which he continually refused knowing it was an instant first-class ticket to Vietnam. Finally, he was brought in and congratulated for a "promotion" and asked to "sign here." Two weeks later he was in Vietnam and in charge of a dozen 18-19 year olds as a 24 year old himself.
Though he was in a number of skirmishes and returned home 8 months or so later with 2 purple hearts (one insignificant and the other an inch from his life), he said that his scariest moment was being in charge of lawless 18 year olds. Apparently, a couple of his guys were making a deal with a village girl for prostitution (I don't think she was a professional, just a young girl that needed some help), and the ARVN soldiers posted with my dad's group were not happy about it at all. ARVN soldiers were of all ages, generally older and more mature, and they really did not like the idea of these young American boys exploiting "their women." Next thing you know, you have weapons drawn and a lot of yelling, and my dad had to get in the middle and calm the situation as the leader in charge. He says that was the closest he felt to death the whole time. The ARVN were apparently extremely mad.
The one story that brings a grin to his face and cracks him up though was upon return to the States and getting back into graduate school, he says they all found it hilarious that he was earning more than his graduate professor. He had 3 paychecks coming in - military retirement, disability, and his graduate research stipend.
Finishing your first year did not count as being a second year student. Even though he had completed his first year, he would not start his second year of graduate school until September when classes began. He was literally a couple of months away from being grandfathered into the old rules and deferred from the draft until he finished graduate school or turned 24. Instead, he was now eligible for the draft and at the top of the list due to the eldest first rules. He received his orders in October of that year and was called to report in early December. He always comments that he was appreciative of all of his professors as they all allowed him to take his finals early that year, so he wouldn't waste that semester of graduate school.
In camp, he was routinely requested to sign-up for NCO school to which he continually refused knowing it was an instant first-class ticket to Vietnam. Finally, he was brought in and congratulated for a "promotion" and asked to "sign here." Two weeks later he was in Vietnam and in charge of a dozen 18-19 year olds as a 24 year old himself.
Though he was in a number of skirmishes and returned home 8 months or so later with 2 purple hearts (one insignificant and the other an inch from his life), he said that his scariest moment was being in charge of lawless 18 year olds. Apparently, a couple of his guys were making a deal with a village girl for prostitution (I don't think she was a professional, just a young girl that needed some help), and the ARVN soldiers posted with my dad's group were not happy about it at all. ARVN soldiers were of all ages, generally older and more mature, and they really did not like the idea of these young American boys exploiting "their women." Next thing you know, you have weapons drawn and a lot of yelling, and my dad had to get in the middle and calm the situation as the leader in charge. He says that was the closest he felt to death the whole time. The ARVN were apparently extremely mad.
The one story that brings a grin to his face and cracks him up though was upon return to the States and getting back into graduate school, he says they all found it hilarious that he was earning more than his graduate professor. He had 3 paychecks coming in - military retirement, disability, and his graduate research stipend.
JCON - I think you mean OCS (officer candidate school) rather than NCO (non-commissioned officer) which is staff sgt and above. OCS was a sure one way ticket to Viet Nam. I was offered rotary wing flight school (helicopter) after basic training which i refused for the same reasons.
Well crap. Even on a day that we all should have been thankful for those that gave their lives, someone has to go effing political. While the arguement has merit, it's very ill timed. Memorial Day is for memorializing the fallen soldier, not to question why he fell.
God Bless the American Soldier and their families that sacrifice so much. I'm very grateful and deeply humbled by their love of their country and their dedication to service.
He ended up a non-commissioned officer. I'm sure of that. I don't know all of the intricacies of the military or more than what I've been told in stories from him, but I do know for sure that he was an NCO. I believe staff sgt as you state. I've never asked him his title since I've been an adult, but I recall him saying he was a sgt when I was a kid.
Your father made a wise decision to go NCO rather than an officer. I stayed NCO rather than Warrant Officer (helicopter pilot). I got out as a staff sgt (E-6). I think he and I were in about the same time. Definitely the same era. All combat arms had instant promotions to buck sgt (E-5) after Advanced Training for guys showing leadership skills. The promotion was accompanied by an all expense paid trip (no business class seats) to a war zone.
I think Gold Star families would think differently. Besides, it's Memorial Day for the fallen. I don't think we Memorialize war itself.
Worth a read by everyone. History is important.
http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1900454,00.html
Memorial Day marks the unofficial start of summer, conjuring images of picnics, barbecues or just a lazy day off. But originally the holiday was charged with deeper meaning — and with controversy.
The exact origins of Memorial Day are disputed, with at least five towns claiming to have given birth to the holiday sometime near the end of the Civil War. Yale University historian David Blight places the first Memorial Day in April 1865, when a group of former slaves gathered at a Charleston, S.C., horse track turned Confederate prison where more than 250 Union soldiers had died. Digging up the soldiers' mass grave, they interred the bodies in individual graves, built a 100-yd. fence around them and erected an archway over the entrance bearing the words "Martyrs of the Race Course." On May 1, 1865, some 10,000 black Charleston residents, white missionaries, teachers, schoolchildren and Union troops marched around the Planters' Race Course, singing and carrying armfuls of roses. Gathering in the graveyard, the crowd watched five black preachers recite scripture and a children's choir sing spirituals and "The Star-Spangled Banner." While the story is largely forgotten today, some historians consider the gathering the first Memorial Day. (See the photo essay "Our World at War.")
Despite scattered celebrations in small towns, it took three more years for the holiday to become widely observed. In a proclamation, General John A. Logan of the Grand Army of the Republic — an organization of former soldiers and sailors — dubbed May 30, 1868, Decoration Day, which was "designated for the purpose of strewing with flowers or otherwise decorating the graves of comrades who died in defense of their country during the late rebellion." On Decoration Day that year, General James Garfield gave a speech at Arlington National Cemetery. Afterward, 5,000 observers adorned the graves of the more than 20,000 Union and Confederate soldiers entombed at the cemetery. (Read a TIME cover story on how not to lose in Afghanistan.)
At the outset, Memorial Day was so closely linked with the Union cause that many Southern states refused to celebrate it. They acquiesced only after World War I, when the holiday was expanded beyond honoring fallen Civil War soldiers to recognizing Americans who died fighting in all wars. It was also renamed Memorial Day. Some critics say that by making the holiday more inclusive, however, the original focus — on, as Frederick Douglass put it, the moral clash between "slavery and freedom, barbarism and civilization" — has been lost. Most Southern states still recognize Confederate Memorial Day as an official holiday, and many celebrate it on the June birthday of Jefferson Davis, the President of the Confederacy. But Texas, for one, observes the holiday on Robert E. Lee's birthday, Jan. 19 — which also happens to be Martin Luther King Jr. Day.
The long-cherished Memorial Day tradition of wearing red poppies got its start in 1915. While reading Ladies' Home Journal, an overseas war secretary named Moina Michael came across the famous World War I poem "In Flanders Fields" by John McCrae, which begins, "In Flanders fields the poppies blow/ Between the crosses, row on row." Moved, she vowed always to wear a silk poppy in honor of the American soldiers who gave up their lives for their country. She started selling them to friends and co-workers and campaigned for the red flowers to become an official memorial emblem. The American Legion embraced the symbol in 1921, and the tradition has spread to more than 50 other countries, including England, France and Australia. (Watch TIME's video "An 'Honor Flight' for WWII Vets.")
With the National Holiday Act of 1971, Congress moved Memorial Day from May 30 to the last Monday in May. But critics say guaranteeing that the holiday is part of a three-day weekend promotes relaxation instead of stressing the holiday's true meaning. In 1989, Senator Daniel Inouye of Hawaii introduced a bill to move the holiday back to the fixed date of May 30. He has reintroduced it in every Congress since then — with no success.
While traditional Memorial Day rites have dwindled in many towns, they remain strong at Arlington National Cemetery. Since the 1950s, on the Thursday before Memorial Day, soldiers of the 3rd Infantry Division have placed American flags at each of the more than 260,000 graves there. During the weekend, they patrol around the clock to make sure each flag remains aloft. On the holiday itself, every year about 5,000 people turn out to see the President or Vice President give a speech and lay a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. And other Americans are encouraged to observe in a more solitary fashion. At 3 p.m. local time, according to the 2000 National Moment of Remembrance Act, which was passed to emphasize the meaning of Memorial Day, all Americans should "voluntarily and informally observe in their own way a moment of remembrance and respect, pausing from whatever they are doing for a moment of silence or listening to 'Taps.'"
http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1900454,00.html
Memorial Day marks the unofficial start of summer, conjuring images of picnics, barbecues or just a lazy day off. But originally the holiday was charged with deeper meaning — and with controversy.
The exact origins of Memorial Day are disputed, with at least five towns claiming to have given birth to the holiday sometime near the end of the Civil War. Yale University historian David Blight places the first Memorial Day in April 1865, when a group of former slaves gathered at a Charleston, S.C., horse track turned Confederate prison where more than 250 Union soldiers had died. Digging up the soldiers' mass grave, they interred the bodies in individual graves, built a 100-yd. fence around them and erected an archway over the entrance bearing the words "Martyrs of the Race Course." On May 1, 1865, some 10,000 black Charleston residents, white missionaries, teachers, schoolchildren and Union troops marched around the Planters' Race Course, singing and carrying armfuls of roses. Gathering in the graveyard, the crowd watched five black preachers recite scripture and a children's choir sing spirituals and "The Star-Spangled Banner." While the story is largely forgotten today, some historians consider the gathering the first Memorial Day. (See the photo essay "Our World at War.")
Despite scattered celebrations in small towns, it took three more years for the holiday to become widely observed. In a proclamation, General John A. Logan of the Grand Army of the Republic — an organization of former soldiers and sailors — dubbed May 30, 1868, Decoration Day, which was "designated for the purpose of strewing with flowers or otherwise decorating the graves of comrades who died in defense of their country during the late rebellion." On Decoration Day that year, General James Garfield gave a speech at Arlington National Cemetery. Afterward, 5,000 observers adorned the graves of the more than 20,000 Union and Confederate soldiers entombed at the cemetery. (Read a TIME cover story on how not to lose in Afghanistan.)
At the outset, Memorial Day was so closely linked with the Union cause that many Southern states refused to celebrate it. They acquiesced only after World War I, when the holiday was expanded beyond honoring fallen Civil War soldiers to recognizing Americans who died fighting in all wars. It was also renamed Memorial Day. Some critics say that by making the holiday more inclusive, however, the original focus — on, as Frederick Douglass put it, the moral clash between "slavery and freedom, barbarism and civilization" — has been lost. Most Southern states still recognize Confederate Memorial Day as an official holiday, and many celebrate it on the June birthday of Jefferson Davis, the President of the Confederacy. But Texas, for one, observes the holiday on Robert E. Lee's birthday, Jan. 19 — which also happens to be Martin Luther King Jr. Day.
The long-cherished Memorial Day tradition of wearing red poppies got its start in 1915. While reading Ladies' Home Journal, an overseas war secretary named Moina Michael came across the famous World War I poem "In Flanders Fields" by John McCrae, which begins, "In Flanders fields the poppies blow/ Between the crosses, row on row." Moved, she vowed always to wear a silk poppy in honor of the American soldiers who gave up their lives for their country. She started selling them to friends and co-workers and campaigned for the red flowers to become an official memorial emblem. The American Legion embraced the symbol in 1921, and the tradition has spread to more than 50 other countries, including England, France and Australia. (Watch TIME's video "An 'Honor Flight' for WWII Vets.")
With the National Holiday Act of 1971, Congress moved Memorial Day from May 30 to the last Monday in May. But critics say guaranteeing that the holiday is part of a three-day weekend promotes relaxation instead of stressing the holiday's true meaning. In 1989, Senator Daniel Inouye of Hawaii introduced a bill to move the holiday back to the fixed date of May 30. He has reintroduced it in every Congress since then — with no success.
While traditional Memorial Day rites have dwindled in many towns, they remain strong at Arlington National Cemetery. Since the 1950s, on the Thursday before Memorial Day, soldiers of the 3rd Infantry Division have placed American flags at each of the more than 260,000 graves there. During the weekend, they patrol around the clock to make sure each flag remains aloft. On the holiday itself, every year about 5,000 people turn out to see the President or Vice President give a speech and lay a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. And other Americans are encouraged to observe in a more solitary fashion. At 3 p.m. local time, according to the 2000 National Moment of Remembrance Act, which was passed to emphasize the meaning of Memorial Day, all Americans should "voluntarily and informally observe in their own way a moment of remembrance and respect, pausing from whatever they are doing for a moment of silence or listening to 'Taps.'"
My point is that we should honor, pay tribute to, and remember the fallen men and women who died in combat during our history.
And this should be a time of reflection and that should include learning the lessons of history. This lesson hasn't been learned by our government.
All I can say is this from a personal experience from my son. He spent a very rough year in Iraq in 2005. When we brought him home from the airport and as we were getting out of the car, the neighbor was outside waiting and couldn't wait to see him. John was a nice enough fellow and thought pretty highly of our son. They embraced and he said to my son, "Welcome home. You should have never been there." My son pleasantly nodded and we went inside. An hour or so later he told me that he is going to have to figure out how to handle the likes of the many Mr. Warners. He said he didn't want to upset anyone but he also was confused in that everyone should have known that he volunteered to go. He was confused. I really didn't know what to tell him other than that it wasn't him that was confused, it was others that allowed their political feelings interupt their personal conversations towards others. My son and others like him know full well what their government did and didn't do. The last thing any returning soldier needs to hear is that they went in vain. That their buddies died in vain. So what you have to say CT is important, but like neighbor John, it's just ill timed. My son didn't even make it to his front door without being told his time away was not worthy. It isn't a good feeling no matter how well intended. Like I posted earlier, there is room for this discussion but not on a day that we set aside to appreciate and give thanks to those that died. On Memorial Day, the Gold Star families do not want to hear how their loved one should still be alive or could be alive if it wasn't for 'the Government'. That's too painful for most.
With this , I'm out.
With this , I'm out.
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Had I been your neighbor, I would have welcomed your son home without the personal opinion of the military action he was a part of.
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