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Did Tulsa Do OU a Favor or Did They Expose Us?

WP76

Sooner starter
Oct 4, 2001
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One school of thought would be that they helped us by snapping us out of complacency and letting us know what we need to do against teams like West Virginia, TCU, Baylor. and the Pokes.

Conversely, you could also say that they exposed us by giving future offensive coordinators a clear blueprint of how to attack the OU defense. You can bet that every team will do what Tulsa did until we prove that we can stop it.

I'm hoping it's the former, otherwise we're looking at another five loss season.
 
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So what if they do? If the offense plays like they did against Tulsa, we'll just out score them. I think that is why Stoops brought in Lincoln. He knew he wasn't playing in the run happy SEC. JMO
 
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One school of thought would be that they helped us by snapping us out of complacency and letting us know what we need to do against teams like West Virginia, TCU, Baylor. and the Pokes.

Conversely, you could also say that they exposed us by giving future offensive coordinators a clear blueprint of how to attack the OU defense. You can bet that every team will do what Tulsa did until we prove that we can stop it.

I'm hoping it's the former, otherwise we're looking at another five loss season.

Oh hell, I've already ceded two losses, maybe three.
That way when it happens I can say to myself, "I told me so."

A preemptive way to suffer less disappointment.:eek:
 
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One school of thought would be that they helped us by snapping us out of complacency and letting us know what we need to do against teams like West Virginia, TCU, Baylor. and the Pokes.

Conversely, you could also say that they exposed us by giving future offensive coordinators a clear blueprint of how to attack the OU defense. You can bet that every team will do what Tulsa did until we prove that we can stop it.

I'm hoping it's the former, otherwise we're looking at another five loss season.
Perhaps a little of both.
But I wonder how the game would have played out had Jordan Thomas started at cornerback and the two fumbles near Tulsa's goal line had not occurred.....then there was having to play a makeshift offensive line that did not hurt OU, but it may have enabled the running game to click better had Darlington played and Kasitati played the entire game. Mbanasor will be a good player for OU, but his development will be painful if Thomas stays sidelined.
 
So what if they do? If the offense plays like they did against Tulsa, we'll just out score them. I think that is why Stoops brought in Lincoln. He knew he wasn't playing in the run happy SEC. JMO

The problem is we can't just assume we're going to hang 50 on everyone. Tulsa had the worst defensive personnel that we'll see for the rest of the year, excluding Kansas. Texas has talent on defense that's maturing and we're not going to light up the defenses of Snyder or Patterson. Baylor's defense has speed and can always be counted on for a few defensive cheap shots that take out one or two of our offensive players.

In any case, we're going to have to get some key defensive stops against our upcoming opponents. Whether Mike, his assistants, and our defensive players are capable of doing that remains to be seen.
 
Ctokie I think we see now why Thomas plays( he is pretty bad) because the other options are even worse
 
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The problem is we can't just assume we're going to hang 50 on everyone. Tulsa had the worst defensive personnel that we'll see for the rest of the year, excluding Kansas. Texas has talent on defense that's maturing and we're not going to light up the defenses of Snyder or Patterson. Baylor's defense has speed and can always be counted on for a few defensive cheap shots that take out one or two of our offensive players.

In any case, we're going to have to get some key defensive stops against our upcoming opponents. Whether Mike, his assistants, and our defensive players are capable of doing that remains to be seen.


I respectively disagree. This offense is built to hang a half of hundred on any team we play. I would like to see some more slant in passes, but that's just me. 90 offensive snaps per game would help.

I will say this, UWV will be a test game to see how good we are. That team is loaded with upper classmen. I think they have gave up 17 points so far this year on defense.
 
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I respectively disagree. This offense is built to hang a half of hundred on any team we play. I would like to see some more slant in passes, but that's just me. 90 offensive snaps per game would help.

I will say this, UWV will be a test game to see how good we are. That team is loaded with upper classmen. I think they have gave up 17 points so far this year on defense.
West Virginia has played Georgia Southern and Liberty and plays a poor Maryland team (all three games at home) before playing OU on 10/03.....so I choose to ignore judging West Virginia's defense until it stops playing cream puffs.
 
West Virginia has played Georgia Southern and Liberty and plays a poor Maryland team (all three games at home) before playing OU on 10/03.....so I choose to ignore judging West Virginia's defense until it stops playing cream puffs.


Yeah, but you can't over look that Senior/Jr (mostly redshirt) dominated team. I think we'll beat them, but I think they'll make some noise before the conference games are concluded. JMO.
 
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Not sure the Horn D is all that after last night. No one, not even Rice, has had trouble moving the ball on them. In the RRS for the OU offense turnovers likely the only possible problem.
 
Not sure the Horn D is all that after last night. No one, not even Rice, has had trouble moving the ball on them. In the RRS for the OU offense turnovers likely the only possible problem.

Texas I think lost quite a bit from their defense last season. Even my buddies down here who are Texas fans knew going into this season they wouldn't be as good defensively.
 
One school of thought would be that they helped us by snapping us out of complacency and letting us know what we need to do against teams like West Virginia, TCU, Baylor. and the Pokes.

Conversely, you could also say that they exposed us by giving future offensive coordinators a clear blueprint of how to attack the OU defense. You can bet that every team will do what Tulsa did until we prove that we can stop it.

I'm hoping it's the former, otherwise we're looking at another five loss season.
The problem is you're assuming we can change those weaknesses. I'm not 100% sure that without some scheme changes that we're going to have any great changes defensively, personnel-wise. I get that Jordan Thomas didn't start, but nothing about his performances to date makes me think the outcome would have been night and day different. We're going to continue to run this type defense as long as Mike Stoops is here, and we're going to get shredded by good spread teams because of it.

And the blueprint to beat Mike has been out for awhile. See any of the Baylor games the last four years.
 
Which is why we need to "build the fence" I mentioned earlier. Shannon is needed in the middle to lead by example allowing Striker more ability to roam & destroy tcu & baylor offenses starters
 
Teams have known our tendencies on defense for years. Tulsa gave us a chance to work on our offensive timing, and the Akron and Tennessee games made it obvious that we needed the work. Unless magic strikes, we will have to outscore our opponents to win, just as we have done in about every game other than the 2000 title game.
 
Yes they exposed us like I was afraid they would do. Mike is still clueless when it comes to the spread and we apparently are painfully average at both corners. It will take a miracle to beat Baylor in Waco.
 
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First, to the OP, my compliments. OUtstanding question.

I'm with CTO on this. And some others' points.

Yesterday during the second half we had Brown Jr at left tackle, playing in his third college game.
We had Farniok playing his first game ever at guard. He's been a back up tackle for four years. I think he might be better than the starting guard for two previous games, who couldn't play there yesterday, because he was starting his third game ever, but his first game at the position, at center. That center was Alvarez.
We were playing a captian at right guard, but for only a couple of series. Kasitati, After that, it was Dalton, who was thought to be the backup at left guard.
And we played St John, also a senior, but only starting his third game after very little previous playing time at right tackle, until in the fourth, the true freshman, Samia, entered for the first time since Akron.

I know this is a D eval thread, but against teams like Tulsa, and especially Baylor, you'd better scored a bunch to keep up. TCU had a great defense last season. They scored 58 and Baylor and it wasn't enough.

Michigan State beat Baylor coming in with a nationally heralded defense. They gave up 41 points through less than three quarters, but outscored Baylor 21-0 in the fourth, through a variety of breaks, turnovers and officiating help and won 42-41.

You can be a really terrific defense, but you aren't going to shut down Baylor. I'm not sure about the details, but they are doing something in terms of play combinations, that somehow allows them to snap the ball quicker than just about any spread no-huddle team I've ever seen. Tulsa is doing the same thing. My suspicion is that there are subtle differences in their alignments which gives their offense automatic routes based on defensive alignment. So they don't have to call a play. Most of it is based on strong safety location. If he's playing well off the LOS, then they run it and if he's up close enough for run support, the routes are already determined, just by the formation.

It causes two problems. Getting the calls in based on their personnel is hard. And then the defenders recognizing formation and getting lined up is really tough. After five plays, they're gassed, but can't leave the field. Baylor is prone to mistakes causing penalties, but last year in Norman, they didn't get called much.

Baylor is a whole lot more talented offensively than Tulsa, though TU's best two receivers are pretty solid. And number three was really good Saturday. But Baylor's OLine will be a lot better. The good news is that Baylor won't be quite as spectacular at quarterback this season. And I wouldn't get too excited that SMU put up some points on them, because the Bears were missing their best players.

I think that Saturday was a non factor in whether OU was exposed or not, because the offense was basically a whole new OLine three games into the year. And they will be better. And that the Sooners can be a lot better on defense when they're not playing a true freshman corner who had one previous QUARTER of college experience, and who didn't know he'd be playing, much less starting until 24 hours earlier. And the Sooners' defensive backfield will do a lot of growing between now and mid November.

I still believe that the key to beating Baylor is to be really good offensively, so that when you send your D out there, they've had sufficient rest to be solid. And I also think that they'll go to something pretty simple, where there will be one simple takeoff on every defense, which will be based on the offensive alignment.

THe best thing about Baylor's offense is that their pace and alignments make it really hard to create changeups. So you kind of know what's coming. You're not going to beat Baylor 35-34. But you can beat them 40 something to 40 something. And you have to have an officiating crew that doesn't overlook their physical junk, and who has the guts in Waco to call linemen illegally downfield when they are.

If OU gets there with a loss and especially with two, it won't happen. So what happens in the next seven weeks is really important to how the game gets called. XII officials take care of their ranked teams.
 
A lot of people have talked about scheme changes on the defense to stop Baylor. I've asked before but haven't seen a good answer. What changes do you think would help? What other teams in the B12 have had any type of success in slowing down Baylor? Maybe all we can do is just out score them.
 
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PCSooner,

The biggest change(s) I can see are to play man press up close on the WR, and jam the crud out of them right at the LOS. That's where Tulsa got seemingly most of their yards, when we'd play five yards off the LOS and just let them catch a two yard quick out and turn it into a four yard gain. They're hoping to bust a few from time to time, but would settle for driving the field in small chunks like that.

When you do that, two things happen: 1) your front guys have more time to get pressure on the QB. Of their 91 plays, only two were for losses. Their QB got the ball out of the backfield in nanoseconds, so we got little pressure on him. 2) it exposes risk of their WRs getting past your initial press and burning you for large gains/TDs. It's one of the things they're waiting for, moving your DBs up so they can go over the top.

But you also get more disruption in their timing, and better chances for sacks and takeaways.

Bottom line is there's no great way to stop the spread. It's just a matter of picking your poison. Bob and Mike
 
Bob and Mike want to give you all the cushion you want, giving up small chunks all day long until you're inside the red zone where the defense has the numbers to be more successful. Yards don't hurt you, points do. We have up 1,000,000 yards Saturday, and only 38 points. And some of that was due to an onside/squib kick into a Hail Mary at the end of the first half. Spread offenses will get their points if they don't shoot themselves in the foot (see OU versus Tennessee). I think Mike's scheme leaves your defense out on the field way too long, which means they're going to get more tired as the game progresses. We're basically playing prevent defense for four quarters, philosophically speaking.
 
Defensive Truths:
1. Emotion plays a huge role in defense. We were not playing the Vols on Sat.
2. Personnel matters. Sanchez is good, but he isn't Revis. Quit trying to put him on the same level, esp. when we play an offense designed to iso personnel in mismatches. There are better WRs in this league than either/any of our CBs, just be ready for it.
3. We have the best defensive scheme possible against spread offenses. Seriously, what more could we do? #2 is the limiting factor, not alignment,
 
OU can improve on defense but that improvement hinges on 1) whatever adjustments the coaching staff can implement to at least contain....not shutdown....opponents' offenses and 2) how OU's young talent in the secondary can step up to solidify a very troubling depth issue. OU can be better on defense. It was OU's defense against Tennessee after OU had fallen behind 17-3 that allowed Mayfield and company to pull out the game in OT.
Until then, it's all about OU's offense outscoring the opposition and surviving from one game to the next.....winning ugly....with arena football scores....and "carrying" the defense on its shoulders until Coach Mike can correct what's wrong.
 
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Baylor's former OC won't be at Tulsa more than two years if he keeps lighting up defenses.
 
I just don't see a lot of changes making that much difference on the defense. You can't stop good offenses from scoring. If you set up your defense to stop the pass, you will get burned on the runs and vice versa. We will have to sustain offensive drives to help our defense stay off the field as much as possible, and even more importantly, turn those drives into points at every opportunity.

I believe the offense will have to carry this team this year even though the defense should get better as the season goes along. This teams biggest challenge in games going forward will be facing great defenses. TCU looks to me to be the toughest opponent. We will hold our own against Baylor providing the offense shows up on game day.
 
So what if they do? If the offense plays like they did against Tulsa, we'll just out score them. I think that is why Stoops brought in Lincoln. He knew he wasn't playing in the run happy SEC. JMO

I agree and have previously said this year's team to win, will need to have a basketball mentality on turf. I also don't think that many teams in the Big 12 can change their offense to match Tulsa's just to play OU. But that slant pass has to be stopped.
 
I agree and have previously said this year's team to win, will need to have a basketball mentality on turf. I also don't think that many teams in the Big 12 can change their offense to match Tulsa's just to play OU. But that slant pass has to be stopped.
They haven't stopped that slant pass or the short passes over the middle in the last 10 yrs
 
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The newspaper this morning has a article about Bob addressing coverage issues. He said something about playing close to the receivers instead of the cushion. He said when they tried tight coverage, the receivers changed their route to slants.
Parity is more obvious than ever, the spread offense has had a part in that.
 
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Moses that's something I always wondered why OU didn't try. I know last season against Baylor the huge 10 yard cushions was just a disaster. Mike Stoops covered the reasons with his "pick your poison" in basically deciding if you want your defense to give up short passes to prevent the long ball, or play press and leave yourself more open to the long ball.
I lean more towards playing press since the longer passes are generally lower percentage completion passes. The short passes the cushion gives up are extremely high percentage passes as far as completion rates. And also playing press gives opportunity to disrupt the route of the WR, and thus disrupting the timing of the play. Also since long passes take longer to develop than the short, quick-release passes, it gives a bit more time for the defense and blitzes to get pressure on the QB and force him into making mistakes and affecting his ability to make a perfect throw.
That's just my thinking of it as an armchair QB. And I say that fully aware that my knowledge of the game is epically ignorant compared to that of the OU coaches. I can only assume my thinking has been thought of by coaches in how to cope with Baylor offense and is prolly unfeasible.
 
Moses that's something I always wondered why OU didn't try. I know last season against Baylor the huge 10 yard cushions was just a disaster. Mike Stoops covered the reasons with his "pick your poison" in basically deciding if you want your defense to give up short passes to prevent the long ball, or play press and leave yourself more open to the long ball.
I lean more towards playing press since the longer passes are generally lower percentage completion passes. The short passes the cushion gives up are extremely high percentage passes as far as completion rates. And also playing press gives opportunity to disrupt the route of the WR, and thus disrupting the timing of the play. Also since long passes take longer to develop than the short, quick-release passes, it gives a bit more time for the defense and blitzes to get pressure on the QB and force him into making mistakes and affecting his ability to make a perfect throw.
That's just my thinking of it as an armchair QB. And I say that fully aware that my knowledge of the game is epically ignorant compared to that of the OU coaches. I can only assume my thinking has been thought of by coaches in how to cope with Baylor offense and is prolly unfeasible.
UT shut down the Baylor passing attack, but got gashed by the running game.
 
"snapping us out of complacency"

R.U. serious - what exactly do we have to be complacent about? Baylor is essentially dominating the conference and specifically us:
2013: OU 12 BU 41
2014: OU 14 BU 48

We had a chance to play Baylor's "JV" in terms of a Tulsa team coached by a Briles' disciple and they were one score away from hitting BU's average against us. We are essentially talking ZERO improvement (actually, adjusting for BU's talent level its looks like a step backwards).

There is no way to spin what happened Saturday - Mike S. and the new DB coach are back to square one. Counting on an O that has come out of the gates strong 1 out of 3 tries this year is blind optimism, especially in Waco (last time we were on the road we scratched and clawed to 17 points in regulation).

How is Baylor not our staff's #1 concern? We could have won @TCU last year, but we're not even close to BU. Does the staff need bulletin board material? Here ya go:

Baylor is the reason OU and Texas aren't OU and Texas any more
By Bill Connelly@SBN_BillC on Jul 9, 2015, 10:00a
http://www.sbnation.com/college-foo.../baylor-football-2015-preview-schedule-roster
 
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Easy Phaeded....like a few have alluded to, there really isn't anyone in the country that is stopping Baylor on a consistent basis. This may be the direction all of college football offenses eventually go. I'm on the side with you that it's definitely a cause for concern about what will happen when OU goes against the Baylor offense, only next time will Baylor level talent. But I think Bob may have conceded the thinking that Baylor is nearly unstoppable when he decided to replace Heupel with an air raid type guy in Riley. Maybe Bob has realized the effort to shut down Baylor is futile, so the only other direction is you must outscore them. I agree that these type offenses make Mike Stoops look pretty impotent, but man I don't see any other defensive coordinators that could stop Baylor consistently.
 
The only way to make things difficult is to get pressure on the QB and hope that it leads to either bad decisions on his part or fortuitous circumstances. Give a good throwing QB enough time, space and opportunity (ala playing 10 years off the receivers) and they are going to eat you alive. At that point it's an all out offensive game.

I don't believe we've used (with the exception of the TN game but they weren't throwing much anyway) our talent on the pass rush side enough. It's a risk but no more so than dropping back and playing off the receivers.
 
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Defensive Truths:
1. Emotion plays a huge role in defense. We were not playing the Vols on Sat.
2. Personnel matters. Sanchez is good, but he isn't Revis. Quit trying to put him on the same level, esp. when we play an offense designed to iso personnel in mismatches. There are better WRs in this league than either/any of our CBs, just be ready for it.
3. We have the best defensive scheme possible against spread offenses. Seriously, what more could we do? #2 is the limiting factor, not alignment,

Here is what Sanchez looks like more often than not. I don't think he's really all that great, he's always trying to make the big play rather than stopping one:

hi-res-5b9d1bf5142f22fe4c44fde03a41bd56_crop_north.jpg
 
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The only way to make things difficult is to get pressure on the QB and hope that it leads to either bad decisions on his part or fortuitous circumstances. Give a good throwing QB enough time, space and opportunity (ala playing 10 years off the receivers) and they are going to eat you alive. At that point it's an all out offensive game.

I don't believe we've used (with the exception of the TN game but they weren't throwing much anyway) our talent on the pass rush side enough. It's a risk but no more so than dropping back and playing off the receivers.

Pressure and blitz's don't work when you have a accurate Q-B taking a 2 step drop.Just not enough time to get there. Tight DB coverage creates the slant pass we saw so much of this weekend. It's nearly impossible to stop unless the linebackers get into the passing lanes. When that happens you will get a heavy dose of the running game. I have no answers and apparently most coaching staffs don't either. Why do you think Saban and the Ark coach wants some rule offensive changes?

BTW, the comment by me on the slant in pass wasn't mine, Bob said it in his Monday presser...........

My edit.....Whoops. Mister Moses already posted the same thing above....Sorry MM....
 
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Pressure and blitz's don't work when you have a accurate Q-B taking a 2 step drop.Just not enough time to get there. Tight DB coverage creates the slant pass we saw so much of this weekend. It's nearly impossible to stop unless the linebackers get into the passing lanes. When that happens you will get a heavy dose of the running game. I have no answers and apparently most coaching staffs don't either. Why do you think Saban and the Ark coach wants some rule offensive changes?

BTW, the comment by me on the slant in pass wasn't mine, Bob said it in his Monday presser...........

My edit.....Whoops. Mister Moses already posted the same thing above....Sorry MM....


Yeah, I do get that, but if you mix things up properly, you can get pressure. Baylor is just one of those teams that is going to get theirs. There is no stopping that (who the hell would have thought we'd be saying that 5 years ago?), but if you have to outscore them, you've get to be aggressive. We have people that are aggressive and talented, that could be the difference.

Sit back and let them pick you apart when you make the inevitable mistake, hope they make one, or try and make it happen. Tough one, 100 games 100 different outcomes but only 1 matters.
 
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Rewatched the game last night. 2 consistent coverage problems:

1. Trips left or right: either the middle or the outside WR cuts underneath on a slant as the innermost WR clears out on a downfield or sideline pattern. The slant is almost always wide open as the DB is a step behind. SOLUTION: Have our innermost DB play up on the WR and stay put, swapping WRs with the middle position DB,and step into the slant throwing lane. Otherwise its almost impossible to cover the slant out of this formation. What's maddening is to watch this on 3rd and short over and over and over....

2. RB wheel route: Almost always uncovered. Granted this works well for us as well (e.g., Mixon vs Akron was wide open) but we haven't been overboard on blitzing so there should be someone covering the RB.....hate to waste Evans on spying the RB, but some one has to do it. If the BU offense is too fast in getting the ball out of the QB's hands, negating Striker as a pass rusher, then have Striker flare out with the RB.

Deep balls are mano a mano, but the above can be corrected with scheme.
 
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I thought they might play a little hungover, after the comeback win. The thing that worries me, is the leadership, once again, on defense. Mayfield picked up the offense, his energy, got the guys going but nobody seems to be the guy, on defense.
 
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