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It shouldn't be hard to "get" one another on this topic. Some will think that the Baylor BOR did the right thing faced with all of the potential coverups, lack of reporting, etc that was done. Others obviously feel things didn't move fast and swift enough. Both sides are with merit. This board is getting back to glory (free Yankees03 Josh!). Don't let disagreement sour your interactions.

Sitting out on Main St USA like the rest of you, it's hard to know exactly what to think because there is still so much we likely don't know. The independent investigation could have been the worst decision or the most brilliant one. This thing may be much uglier than has been reported so far.

All that said, we're talking sexual assaults and nothing mentioned about the police or from them. That's disturbing and could be criminal on multiple fronts for multiple folks.
 
It shouldn't be hard to "get" one another on this topic. Some will think that the Baylor BOR did the right thing faced with all of the potential coverups, lack of reporting, etc that was done. Others obviously feel things didn't move fast and swift enough. Both sides are with merit. This board is getting back to glory (free Yankees03 Josh!). Don't let disagreement sour your interactions.

Sitting out on Main St USA like the rest of you, it's hard to know exactly what to think because there is still so much we likely don't know. The independent investigation could have been the worst decision or the most brilliant one. This thing may be much uglier than has been reported so far.

All that said, we're talking sexual assaults and nothing mentioned about the police or from them. That's disturbing and could be criminal on multiple fronts for multiple folks.

That's right my friend, before it's over the local DA and police could be charged with dereliction of duty, assuming they had even an inkling of the severity of the alledged crimes.
This is so far from being a done deal.
 
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everyone needs to look at Josh's thread at the top of the page please!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not here often, but like to see and read the threads from every one here!
Nah it's all good man. Just been a spirited debate. I don't think JoshM's thread at the top is meant to dissuade us from defending our personal views/opinions on issues and events.
 
I cited two specific examples earlier in this thread. Maybe you should familiarize yourself with them before commenting further.

Both of your examples were of the nature of criminal investigation, and the complaint about Baylor conduct is just that... conduct, so how are they related?
Yes, in a criminal case, every T should be crossed and I should be dotted before putting someone in jail. In business, allegations and moral questioning is enough. You're simply telling someone to find a job somewhere else because you don't appreciate the attention they've brought, appropriate or not. You're not robbing years of their life.

And months ago, they were all allegations. Not only were they allegations of a coverup, but also they had to factor in whether the women making the sexual assault allegations were making legit and truthful allegations.

I think by this statement, you're obviously not reading all of the facts that were presented. I provided a link earlier, but since it's being ignored, I'll just quote the pertinent parts.

"In 2013, the Waco Police Department wrote in a police report that it had informed Baylor officials about an off-campus incident involving former All-Big 12 tight end Tre'Von Armstead and former practice squad player Myke Chatman......Baylor didn't begin looking into the allegations until Sept. 11, 2015."

"Baylor kicked Armstead off its football team last fall and expelled him from school in February over the allegations, documents obtained by Outside the Lines show. When Baylor coaches announced his suspension from the team, they said it came as a result of a "team rules violation.""


So Baylor coaches knowingly downplayed the nature of Armstead's suspension last fall, nearly a year ago.

"In the fall of 2015, Baylor hired Philadelphia law firm Pepper Hamilton to review its past treatment of sexual assault claims. The review has not yet been completed."

That means before all of the media assault, Baylor knew something egregious was happening in their athletic department regarding sexual assaults. They didn't act on the suspicions until they started getting a black eye in the media.

"In January, Outside the Lines reported several examples in which school officials either failed to investigate, or adequately investigate, allegations of sexual violence. In many of those cases, officials did not provide support to those who reported assaults, in apparent violation of Title IX federal law. Moreover, it took Baylor more than three years to comply with a federal directive to hire a full-time Title IX coordinator, which it did in fall 2014."

Blatant rules violations by Baylor, all known before this 3rd party investigation you keep hanging your hat on.

"Baylor's investigation of the allegations against Armstead and Chatman didn't begin until the alleged victim, encouraged by a friend who had attended a recent sexual assault prevention training program at the school, asked Baylor officials about her case this past September. The school's Title IX report, issued in February and obtained by Outside the Lines, states that the university had been unaware of the allegations until the woman came forward. But Waco police had written in a police report that on April 18, 2013, "Baylor University was contacted." And the woman, who spoke to Outside the Lines on the condition of anonymity, said that police had told her then that they had contacted Baylor and that someone from the university would follow up."

So the police department is lying, or Baylor is lying, or they're both lying. Let's give Baylor the benefit of the doubt, and it's a police lie. We'll give Baylor a pass on this one.

"When her grades dropped to the point where she lost her academic scholarship, she said she petitioned the financial aid office each following semester for the scholarship to be reinstated. She wrote on the petition form "I was sexually assaulted by 2 Baylor football players during the Spring 2013 semester. As a result, I did not perform well in the classes I was taking at that time." Her scholarship was reinstated, she said, but no one contacted her about the assault during her time as a student at Baylor."

Ah-oh. You mean she put in writing to the school that she had been sexually assaulted and still no one contacted her, but they reinstated her scholarship on an allegation?

"Baylor's Title IX investigation into Armstead began in mid-September last year, just weeks after a Waco jury had convicted former Baylor defensive end Sam Ukwuachu of sexual assault."

Wait. There was a sexual assault conviction by jury last August of a Baylor football player? According to you, I thought we were just dealing with allegations. Now I'm confused.

"The school made its determination to expel Armstead on Feb. 3, 2016, days after an Outside the Lines investigation into the sexual assault cases of Ukwuachu and former Baylor player Tevin Elliott landed."

Hold on. Now I'm REALLY confused. There was ANOTHER player, Tevin Elliott, that was convicted of sexual assault in 2014 for a 2012 incident? But, but, allegations.

"Coaches urged Armstead to opt for a transfer instead of challenging the school's expulsion, "but I stayed because I believed, and still believe, that I would have a fair opportunity to clear my name,""


Hmmm... You're going to tell me that's not a classic case of coaches trying to sweep something under the rug?

And back to my first point about this not being a criminal issue in respects to Baylor, this is a Title IX issue.

"Although a Title IX investigation is not a criminal process and requires a lower bar of evidence to determine guilt, Texas law states that someone can be guilty of sexual assault if he knowingly has sex with someone who is too intoxicated to give consent."

"Baylor's report noted that the woman was too drunk to consent to sex and that Armstead should have known that. It also stated Armstead's credibility was damaged after witness testimony and text messages showed he lied about where he went later that night and whether he had exchanged text messages with the woman."

So Baylor's investigation had proven through text messages that they had sex and she was too drunk to consent which is a Title IX violation and criminal in Texas, but the coaches wanted him to transfer.

On top of all of this, Shawn Oakman gets investigated for a sexual assault on April 3 and arrested on April 13, and it takes until May 26.

It's clear as day to me. Baylor dun goof'd.
 
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This is rich. Briles releases his first statement. Instead of denial and frustration, his response is that he can only guess that the report essentially concludes that he contributed to misconduct. This is like a no-contest plea in court which we all know is "guilty" without saying "guilty."


Art Briles -

“The report prepared by Pepper Hamilton, the law firm hired and paid for by Baylor's Board of Regents, has not been shared with me directly, despite my full cooperation with the investigation,” Briles said in a statement to KWTX-News 10. “I can only assume that the report, which is not independent, supports the conclusions that the Board has already drawn. I hope to share with you what I was aware of as soon as I can so Baylor Nation can begin the healing process.”


He does make a good point though. Since the investigation was hired and paid for by Baylor's Board of Regents, you can't really claim it's independent, can you?
 
If Briles is suggesting that the investigation was a hitjob on behalf on the university, he's crazy.

Baylor U loved that guy. He was their meal ticket. New stadium on the river, etc. It goes without saying they let him do whatever he wanted for years as long as he kept winning.
 
JCon if you really don't get my point in how those cases relate in regards to this discussion and my debate with Long then I really am not going to spend any more of my time on this topic. This has already been beaten to death. Stick with your view on this, and I am perfectly content with my view. And I'm certainly not going to read the wall-of-text you posted. Im sure you made valid points, but this topic is no longer worthy of continuing to invest my time.
 
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@JConXtsy, thanks for the informative post. I haven't paid much attention to the details because, well, it's Baylor and I have as much interest in Baylor as I have in finding a woman with a raging herpes flareup for a one night stand.

Questions I have are:
Who are these "officials?" Are these low level grunts who have a clue or are they of the management/administration type?

Who ordered the investigation by the third party firm?

Where is the oversight?

I'm betting Baylor is in for some "changes."
 
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Says the architect of most of the longest posts I've ever witnessed on this board. :)
I just thought you liked to have logical discussions/debate.

Nah, I put it all out in that final long post. And it was more of a response to Long's "bring enough gun" comment as if I'm not capable of mustering up a response.

If you have any other questions, they will be answered in my previous posts in this thread. No need in continuing in finding other ways of arguing and stating the same points over and over. After typing that novel yesterday, I really just asked myself why in the world am I wasting my time continuing to respond to a thread where both sides aren't going to change their minds.
 
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Questions I have are:
Who are these "officials?" Are these low level grunts who have a clue or are they of the management/administration type?

Who ordered the investigation by the third party firm?

Where is the oversight?

I'm betting Baylor is in for some "changes."

Good questions. I'd assume that Baylor "officials" would mean they just left messages at the appropriate offices. My guess is the President's. That's the office I would call if I were a cop reporting an incident with a student. Even low level grunts would be pretty alarmed by a sexual assault investigation, and I'm sure they would at least make sure their management heard about it.

I would assume orders to hire a 3rd party investigation would have to come from, or at least be approved by, the Board of Regents.

Apparently, there wasn't any oversight. It's apparent that they hired Pepper Hamilton and figured that was that and all they needed to do, then they sat on their laurels.
 
If you have any other questions, they will be answered in my previous posts in this thread. No need in continuing in finding other ways of arguing and stating the same points over and over. After typing that novel yesterday, I really just asked myself why in the world am I wasting my time continuing to respond to a thread where both sides aren't going to change their minds.

I'm not prodding you for more. I was just teasing you for your slightly hypocritical comment (you gotta admit it). :)

I genuinely was interjecting for sport of debate. I was sitting back, not going to say anything, until you commented that Longtime was alone in his stance. Then, I was like, whoa, wait a second.
 
I'm not prodding you for more. I was just teasing you for your slightly hypocritical comment (you gotta admit it). :)

I genuinely was interjecting for sport of debate. I was sitting back, not going to say anything, until you commented that Longtime was alone in his stance. Then, I was like, whoa, wait a second.
Show me where I said Long was alone in his stance...
 
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BillyRay, the forum elders comment was directed at me, not you.

BTW, Longtime, I wasn't summoning them to "bring enough gun," but for some of them interweb whizzes to break out some visual humor.

This thread turned to suck.


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That's right my friend, before it's over the local DA and police could be charged with dereliction of duty, assuming they had even an inkling of the severity of the alledged crimes.
This is so far from being a done deal.

Good point! Did these girls report any of this to the police. If not, why. This is in no way an argument against all those Baylor people getting off. They certainly shouldn't and never coach or have anything to do with college athletics again if they are found to have known and not acted; however, the victims should have gone to the police first and then to the school. Surely they did so to fitty's point, where does the local authorities stand in all this uncovering of criminal activity?
 
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