Student or athlete?

[hOUston...]

I read the attached article and I am having difficulty deciding who should be responsible. Is it student/athlete, his parent(s), high school football coach, UM, Harbugh, NCAA, college school presidents or is this just another example of "welcome to the real world". If you have time click, read and comment.

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/c...3/dennis-norfleet-michigan-football/27227819/

 

[Soonerheart]

No matter how many times they are told and helped along the way... it’s still on the athlete to understand that it’s in his life’s best interest to obtain an employable degree and to put in the necessary work.

 

[roygbell]

I'm a guy who believes in education. We should be recruiting kids who want to be student athletes. The University of Michigan is an educational institution, not a professional football/sports organization. Their first mission is to provide a quality education leading to a quality degree. Playing football on a football scholarship is secondary to getting an education.

If these kids don't want a degree and are just using their scholarship for the purpose of getting a great education then they don't need to be at Michigan ... or at OU. I have no problem with the NCAA requirements that kids must progress towards a degree in order to be eligible to play college sports on a scholarship. In fact, I don't believe the rules are tough enough on the kids. Very few of these kids will ever earn a living playing football. The vast majority will have to make it working hard at some profession/job/business. We need to ensure that we are using our scholarship money to do the best job of preparing these kids for the real world and the tough environment out there.

So, I have no issue with kids being dismissed if they aren't doing what is necessary to pursue a degree. If they cut class apply some discipline. If they don't want to get an education then show them the door. Let them find their own way and let their parents foot the bill.

I like the way Bob Stoops takes care of his kids and makes sure they are in class. Bob, sit AD for some PT because he missed some classes. That didn't hurt AD at all.

In my mind they are student athletes with the student being the most important. However, I believe most fans have either forgot that principle or never knew it in the first place.

 

[hOUston...]

I'm a guy who believes in education. We should be recruiting kids who want to be student athletes. The University of Michigan is an educational institution, not a professional football/sports organization. Their first mission is to provide a quality education leading to a quality degree. Playing football on a football scholarship is secondary to getting an education.

If these kids don't want a degree and are just using their scholarship for the purpose of getting a great education then they don't need to be at Michigan ... or at OU. I have no problem with the NCAA requirements that kids must progress towards a degree in order to be eligible to play college sports on a scholarship. In fact, I don't believe the rules are tough enough on the kids. Very few of these kids will ever earn a living playing football. The vast majority will have to make it working hard at some profession/job/business. We need to ensure that we are using our scholarship money to do the best job of preparing these kids for the real world and the tough environment out there.

So, I have no issue with kids being dismissed if they aren't doing what is necessary to pursue a degree. If they cut class apply some discipline. If they don't want to get an education then show them the door. Let them find their own way and let their parents foot the bill.

I like the way Bob Stoops takes care of his kids and makes sure they are in class. Bob, sit AD for some PT because he missed some classes. That didn't hurt AD at all.

In my mind they are student athletes with the student being the most important. However, I believe most fans have either forgot that principle or never knew it in the first place.

Roy, I agree with your overall conclusion. However when I read -- "Dennis had a 3.0 average and he had 90 credits, but they weren't toward any major,'' Harvel said. "No psych courses, no math. He wants to be a special education teacher and help kids. My problem was the credits he had weren't toward a major.'' -- I am wondering if the UM education or football counselor should have helped guide him to meet the goals of the "student" if he actually wanted to receive a degree. Or, is "football player" a synonym for gladiator.

 

[CTOkie]

I'm a guy who believes in education. We should be recruiting kids who want to be student athletes. The University of Michigan is an educational institution, not a professional football/sports organization. Their first mission is to provide a quality education leading to a quality degree. Playing football on a football scholarship is secondary to getting an education.

If these kids don't want a degree and are just using their scholarship for the purpose of getting a great education then they don't need to be at Michigan ... or at OU. I have no problem with the NCAA requirements that kids must progress towards a degree in order to be eligible to play college sports on a scholarship. In fact, I don't believe the rules are tough enough on the kids. Very few of these kids will ever earn a living playing football. The vast majority will have to make it working hard at some profession/job/business. We need to ensure that we are using our scholarship money to do the best job of preparing these kids for the real world and the tough environment out there.

So, I have no issue with kids being dismissed if they aren't doing what is necessary to pursue a degree. If they cut class apply some discipline. If they don't want to get an education then show them the door. Let them find their own way and let their parents foot the bill.

I like the way Bob Stoops takes care of his kids and makes sure they are in class. Bob, sit AD for some PT because he missed some classes. That didn't hurt AD at all.

In my mind they are student athletes with the student being the most important. However, I believe most fans have either forgot that principle or never knew it in the first place.

Taking a page from UConn coach Geno Auriemma, it's best to "recruit" the parent(s) of an athlete as much as the athlete him/her self. See what kind of people (friends and family) raised and influenced the player throughout his/her early life. Find out what the player's ego is all about. Is there a sense of entitlement within the player's mind ? Is the player willing to work hard in practices ? What has been the player's academic history ? What do the player's high school teammates think of him/her ?
If Auriemma and his staff don't like the parents of an athlete, they back off. The success of this recruiting guideline is reflected every minute of every game for Auriemma's team.
This policy can work for male athletes as well as female athletes, but it's apparent that coaches of men's teams will usually sell their soul to get a player, regards of the baggage he brings with him.
I think better off-the-field scrutiny of high school players should be as important as any other aspect of coaching. I'm not saying it's fool proof, but it beats the way things are done now.

 

[roygbell]

Roy, I agree with your overall conclusion. However when I read -- "Dennis had a 3.0 average and he had 90 credits, but they weren't toward any major,'' Harvel said. "No psych courses, no math. He wants to be a special education teacher and help kids. My problem was the credits he had weren't toward a major.'' -- I am wondering if the UM education or football counselor should have helped guide him to meet the goals of the "student" if he actually wanted to receive a degree. Or, is "football player" a synonym for gladiator.

Yes, I saw that as well and I agree with you. The schools need to ensure that their student athletes are getting sound guidance on their degree path. You may remember that OU got some negative press last year over a couple of student athletes wound up with degrees that were worthless and no job market

 

[Plainosooner]

There is a larger issue here. If athletes are getting "worthless degrees," then they aren't the only students who are. I would argue that many of us procure degrees that aren't wonderful helps in the job market. I've joked many times that I was shocked in 1973 that IBM didn't have a philosophy department.

But we all make OUr choices. The more relevant issue is about a school like Michigan, which truumpets its academic excellence to recruits in all sports, but then, even if they're competent to deal with a very rigorous curriculum, funnels them into majors designed to help them stay eligible. But why are there such degrees? Part of it is the liberal bent at the strong majority of universities. People who've spent their entire lives in academia, aren't likely to understand much about the free enterprise system. But even those of us with "worthless," A&S degrees, figure it out somewhere along the way.

I could even make a case that no degree is worthless. It's just that some aren't quite as valuable in short term job procurement. And that's okay. I remember being an arrogant young sophomore, and asking the GA teaching the Geology lab weekly when it was important for me to take either Geology or Geography to attain an Arts and Sciences degree. He had a great answer. The worthlessness of the course was largely because the guy teaching the course was from some Soviet Block country with an accent so thick that it was hard to understand much of what he said in his lectures.

The flip side is that my History of Science teacher, taught me more about how to think than just about any man I've ever met. He's long gone, but his impact endures. Thankfully. So if we learn something valuable along the way, there is no such thing as a worthless degree.

 

[BillyRay]

designed to help them stay eligible.

That is all that needed to be said. The idea of a "student-athlete" is a joke. These kids are recruited to play football....NOT to get an education or degree. Sure there are some kids that are much more aware of their educational goals going into this process when they play football for a program. And they are much move involved in deciding what classes to take to work towards that educational goal. But many kids are not, and at that point it's up to the university/program to get them in classes that will make sure they stay eligible to play football. I once heard a lady say it best, "these kids may be getting degrees, but they are not getting an education."

 

[roygbell]

That is all that needed to be said. The idea of a "student-athlete" is a joke. These kids are recruited to play football....NOT to get an education or degree. Sure there are some kids that are much more aware of their educational goals going into this process when they play football for a program. And they are much move involved in deciding what classes to take to work towards that educational goal. But many kids are not, and at that point it's up to the university/program to get them in classes that will make sure they stay eligible to play football. I once heard a lady say it best, "these kids may be getting degrees, but they are not getting an education."

This is a huge issue and one that needs to be fixed. Student athletes should be enrolled in a degree track that leads to solid profession. We have watered down our educational system over the decades to the point where we are granting more worthless degrees than degrees what give the student a valuable career track after hel/she gets the degree.

I think this is an issue that the SEC has cultivated and used to their advantage. How many SEC schools have been exposed on the weak education for it's athletes. Tennessee a few decades ago was exposed and not a thing happened to them that I am aware.

We need to fix this issue.

 

[CTOkie]

That is all that needed to be said. The idea of a "student-athlete" is a joke. These kids are recruited to play football....NOT to get an education or degree. Sure there are some kids that are much more aware of their educational goals going into this process when they play football for a program. And they are much move involved in deciding what classes to take to work towards that educational goal. But many kids are not, and at that point it's up to the university/program to get them in classes that will make sure they stay eligible to play football. I once heard a lady say it best, "these kids may be getting degrees, but they are not getting an education."

Agree with you BillyRay....the term "student athlete" has become joke, now more than ever. In my opinion, it seems as though the term applies much more to female athletes (Brittney Griner being the only exception I recall) who seem to be more focused on getting degrees, are generally without the feelings of entitlement that their male counterparts too often have and actually display sportsmanship.
If a football player is highly recruited coming out of high school, with 4.5 speed and size to boot, no one really cares how academically grounded he is, any more than the character issues he may bring with him. And like too many high school graduates, he's likely to be functionally illiterate, incapable of finding where Vermont is in relation to Montana on a map or unable to say who fought in the Civil War.....or who won the war. (Kids today seem to feel if something did not happen within their own lifetime, it did not happen or just isn't worth learning about or remembering).
Frankly, I do not feel that OU has done that good a job recruiting players without either academic issues or character issues. Every year seems to reveal a few more bad apples that must be purged. Clearly this can be said of most big time programs, but I'm tired of it just the same.

 

[BillyRay]

This is a huge issue and one that needs to be fixed. Student athletes should be enrolled in a degree track that leads to solid profession. We have watered down our educational system over the decades to the point where we are granting more worthless degrees than degrees what give the student a valuable career track after hel/she gets the degree.

I think this is an issue that the SEC has cultivated and used to their advantage. How many SEC schools have been exposed on the weak education for it's athletes. Tennessee a few decades ago was exposed and not a thing happened to them that I am aware.

We need to fix this issue.

The thing is...how do you fix it? Most football programs in the country are more focused on winning on the football field, than they are the educational prowess of the players in school. If a head coach goes 13-0 and wins a national title, yet half his players are barely literate when they graduate, then he is lauded as a great coach and gets a huge contract extension and raise in salary. But if that same coach can't win consistently on the field, and graduates most of his kids into medical school, then he will probably find himself fired before long since his program didn't win enough. So where is the motivation for these programs to push more academics on their players instead of simply finding them a way to stay eligible so they can get on the field to help win football games?

 

[CTOkie]

The thing is...how do you fix it? Most football programs in the country are more focused on winning on the football field, than they are the educational prowess of the players in school. If a head coach goes 13-0 and wins a national title, yet half his players are barely literate when they graduate, then he is lauded as a great coach and gets a huge contract extension and raise in salary. But if that same coach can't win consistently on the field, and graduates most of his kids into medical school, then he will probably find himself fired before long since his program didn't win enough. So where is the motivation for these programs to push more academics on their players instead of simply finding them a way to stay eligible so they can get on the field to help win football games?

Maybe the solution is to stop giving "scholarships" and instead, offering a "grant in aid" (a financial subsidy) to players. Wouldn't it be cheaper than a 4 year scholarship ?

 

[BillyRay]

Maybe the solution is to stop giving "scholarships" and instead, offering a "grant in aid" (a financial subsidy) to players. Wouldn't it be cheaper than a 4 year scholarship ?

I dunno CT, the push to win would still be there, and the consequences for not winning will still be present.

 

[Plainosooner]

I am on the opposite side of the issue from most of you. First of all, I think athletes ought to be given course credit for their sports. If some dancer in the fine arts dept is putting in the time they are, it all goes towards a degree. Athletes spend as much time on their activities as anybody on campus, and the get very little, or no course credit for it.

It is pie in the sky thinking to speak of goals for everybody to get a relevant degree. Half the student population doesn't. I agree that student athletes ought to be capable students. But that alone doesn't make them likely to get a career enhancing degree.

But it is not a joke. There are tons and tons of guys who would never have gotten close to a college degree, who had their eyes opened by the opportunity and made the most of it. For some, it took longer than others. There is a great story about Bobby Bell making the rounds this week, of his procuring his degree in his 70s. Does that mean that he didn't have something worthwhile before now? Of course not.

OU has plenty of men whose work as OU students propelled them to careers at amazing levels. Jack Mildren, Spencer Tillman. Heck, even the Boz. There was a basketball player, I think Renzie Stone, who is now on the Board of Regents. Some of them got some extra help in most cases because their time commitments made it tougher to do course work.

It worse for basketball players and others whose events happen during the week. How many here would have gotten a degree, while being required to be out of class a day or two a week for two or three months? An athlete ought to be free to pursue their interests. If schools are herding them into stay eligible course work, then the schools should be penalized for it. If that's the discussion, then we're on the same page.

But otherwise, dissing the athletes with the broad brush, claiming that the label "student athlete" is invalid, shows somebody who might need some brush up work on what they should have learned in their four years.

 

[Sooners83]

I would be curious to know the (graduation rate) stats behind all incoming athletic scholarship freshmen vs the typical public incoming (non athletic scholarship) freshman class.

 

[BillyRay]

But it is not a joke.

But otherwise, dissing the athletes with the broad brush, claiming that the label "student athlete" is invalid, shows somebody who might need some brush up work on what they should have learned in their four years.

Sounds like you need to brush up on the history behind the term "student-athlete" and why it came about. The entire premise that the players are "students first, and athletes second" is what is a complete joke. No doubt there are plenty of great stories of kids who made the most of their opportunity that getting an athletic scholarship gave them. But a driven individual is a driven individual, and it's debatable if a kid would have earned a college degree with or without getting an athletic scholarship. If they have the drive and desire to get a degree, then they will find a way to do it. But there are just as many who do just enough to stay eligible to play their sport, and nothing more. In the end, what these kids do on the football field carries more weight than what classes they take when it comes to renewing thier athletic scholarship every year. Staying eligible is what counts, not the quality of the education they are working towards.

 

[Plainosooner]

If you think that a guy who is making a contribution on the field, isn't getting a high level of education that will apply to his life, then you don't understand the nature of the task. Do all of the players put that to use? Of course not. But no other group would have 100% of the participants benefiting. I am well aware of why (Walter Byers I think) coined the term student-athlete. But it's more accurate than you are willing to credit.

Ask Buddy Hield's mom about his opportunity to get a degree, and what that might have been otherwise. His recent decision reflected her views and goals for him. Most of those who don't take the student part seriously, are gone before their eligibility expires anyway. And if they do use it, then let's put a muzzle on those who claim they've been exploited. They got a unique chance. If they failed to take advantage, I suspect most learned something from that.

And if they're wearing burnt orange, while great athletes, but lousy students, then they end up with a lifetime job doing commentary on LHN.

 

[BillyRay]

I completely understand the nature of the task. But to say every player on the field is getting a high level of education to apply to his life is selling fools gold. Just like the kid the article is about. The kid is about to be a senior, yet after several years and all those classes and credit he still hasn't put anything towards a major. It's been nothing but classes to keep his grades high enough to remain eligible to play football. Cuz in the end that's all most programs care about. They don't care about the level or quality of the education they are getting. It's simply do whatever it takes to keep them on the field.
Now nobody is going to argue that there aren't exceptions that go into this with a desire and a motivation to take full advantage of this opportunity. Of course there will always be kids like that and it's encouraging to see kids go that route and work on something that will help them in their future.
But the premise behind that article and this thread is that programs don't really care about the level of education that their players are getting. And that is 100% true in a lot of cases. The student part of "student-athlete" is what is what a joke. That term insinuates the student aspect is as important aspects the athletic portion. And that's false.