Serious Baseball Thread

[fortworth4ou2]

2 serious questions for baseball fanatics:

1. Who has been inducted into the Hall of Fame but is questionable and should not have been?

2. Who is eligible for the HOF but has been omitted?

Please provide your rationale. Thanks.

Boomer Sooner

 

[fortworth4ou2]

Dead thread thus far. Guess I better jump start things.

Bogus HOF Inductees:

1. Rube Marquard...pitching record: 201-177 W/L, ERA: 3.08

New York bias. Pitched almost exclusively in the dead-ball era (1900 - 1920) for the New York Giants (three 20 win seasons) and the Brooklyn Dodgers. Major claim to fame was a 19 game win streak (tied the single season ML record) in his best year (1912). For an acknowledged star pitcher, his career ERA was rather high in comparison to most pitchers in his era. In fact, he was at best the #2 best pitcher on his teams but mostly #3 best. His teams were some of the best hitting teams of his era. Pitched with HOF'er Christy Mathewson during his Giants tenure.

He also pitched in 5 World Series (3 for the great Giants teams and 2 for the Dodgers). His overall record in these games was 2-5 W/L with a 5.32 ERA. Inducted 1971.

2. Lefty Gomez...pitching record: 189-102 W/L, ERA: 3.34

New York bias. Pitched entirely for the great offensive Yankee teams of the '30's - arguably the greatest hitting team of the 20th Century (definitely the best of the decade of the "30's).

He appeared in 5 World Series in that decade. He had a perfect 6-0 W/L record with an ERA of 2.86 (obviously a clutch postseason performer).

IMO, both had decent records but were rather pedestrian in comparison to their HOF peers.

Omission:

Dennis Martinez...pitching record: 245-193 W/L, ERA: 3.70

Highlights: Rare Perfect Game in 1991. For 15 years he won 10 or more games with a high single season of 19. Consistent winner and pitched during a much better hitter's era.

Any baseball historians out there to provide input?


Boomer Sooner

 

[Drewcristo78]

I'll answer this with best players I've seen in my life. Born in 78. Clemens as a pitcher, Bonds as a hitter. There is no equals to them. Both roids.

 

[K2C Sooner]

Dead thread thus far. Guess I better jump start things.

Bogus HOF Inductees:

1. Rube Marquard...pitching record: 201-177 W/L, ERA: 3.08

New York bias. Pitched almost exclusively in the dead-ball era (1900 - 1920) for the New York Giants (three 20 win seasons) and the Brooklyn Dodgers. Major claim to fame was a 19 game win streak (tied the single season ML record) in his best year (1912). For an acknowledged star pitcher, his career ERA was rather high in comparison to most pitchers in his era. In fact, he was at best the #2 best pitcher on his teams but mostly #3 best. His teams were some of the best hitting teams of his era. Pitched with HOF'er Christy Mathewson during his Giants tenure.

He also pitched in 5 World Series (3 for the great Giants teams and 2 for the Dodgers). His overall record in these games was 2-5 W/L with a 5.32 ERA. Inducted 1971.

2. Lefty Gomez...pitching record: 189-102 W/L, ERA: 3.34

New York bias. Pitched entirely for the great offensive Yankee teams of the '30's - arguably the greatest hitting team of the 20th Century (definitely the best of the decade of the "30's).

He appeared in 5 World Series in that decade. He had a perfect 6-0 W/L record with an ERA of 2.86 (obviously a clutch postseason performer).

IMO, both had decent records but were rather pedestrian in comparison to their HOF peers.

Omission:

Dennis Martinez...pitching record: 245-193 W/L, ERA: 3.70

Highlights: Rare Perfect Game in 1991. For 15 years he won 10 or more games with a high single season of 19. Consistent winner and pitched during a much better hitter's era.

Any baseball historians out there to provide input?


Boomer Sooner

Well the obvious are Shoeless Joe Jackson and Pete Rose. I'm one of the few that thinks Rose should be in. I wasn't alive during the Jackson scandal, but I've read some stuff about it and something stinks.

I stopped following the Major's after the strike of the World Series. I'm glad I did after reading about all the steroid babies setting records beyond believe.

I hope none of them ever set foot in the HOF.

One last thing. I know Brad Penny's father. Brad pitched for the Marlins, won two games against the Yankees in the World Series and once threw a one hitter. His dad told me he was offered roids in those days and refused.

He did it right. I haven't talked to them in years, but the last I heard Brad was doing fine in horse racing and other ventures.

 

[Plainosooner]

Roger Maris not in the Hall is absurd. From 1960 until 1968, his team played in the World Series every year except two. Outstanding defensive player. Held baseball's all time record for 40 years and those who broke it all cheated. Mickey Mantle, who played with multiple HoFamers, said he was the best player he ever played with. Two time MVP.

I think the three most overrated Hall of Famers who do not deserve to be there are Carlton Fisk, Billy Williams and atop the undeserving list, Jim Rice. I really don't think Tony Perez was deserving either, but he was a better player than the other three.

I think that leaving off any of the guys who used roids is defendable.

 

[fortworth4ou2]

Maris had 2 great seasons - back-to-back - during the expansion years of the early '60's when some players had their career years. That was pretty much it. His claim to fame otherwise is that he played for the storied Yankees which at that time was loaded with talent due significantly to their KC A's pipeline. Thus, he had many World Series opportunities (both in New York and St. Louis)

As an outfielder, his overall stats were good, not great, and, IMHO, not Hall worthy. Had he been a catcher, 2nd baseman or shortstop, his overall numbers would've possibly been worthy. But, he wasn't.

As for Fisk (great stats for a Catcher), Williams and Rice (both OF's with or near 400+ homers and near 1500 RBI's), their stats were far, far superior to Maris. Field position and stats are relative.

Maris: 275 HR's, 851 RBI's, and .260 BA.

I like Maris a lot but not for the Hall.

I, too, hope the 'roiders never make it in.

Boomer Sooner

 

[fortworth4ou2]

Well the obvious are Shoeless Joe Jackson and Pete Rose. I'm one of the few that thinks Rose should be in. I wasn't alive during the Jackson scandal, but I've read some stuff about it and something stinks.

I stopped following the Major's after the strike of the World Series. I'm glad I did after reading about all the steroid babies setting records beyond believe.

I hope none of them ever set foot in the HOF.

One last thing. I know Brad Penny's father. Brad pitched for the Marlins, won two games against the Yankees in the World Series and once threw a one hitter. His dad told me he was offered roids in those days and refused.

He did it right. I haven't talked to them in years, but the last I heard Brad was doing fine in horse racing and other ventures.

K2C,

Both Jackson and Rose certainly put up some robust stats worthy of enshrinement. As you referenced, both were banned from the game and are not presently eligible for induction. Should the Commissioner, however, allow Rose in (I hope not), he would have to open the doors for Jackson and Cicotte (2 of the 1919 White Sox players banned) to enter as well.

Fitty was around during the time of Jackson and Cicotte so he could easily vouch for them.

Boomer Sooner

 

[K2C Sooner]

K2C,

Both Jackson and Rose certainly put up some robust stats worthy of enshrinement. As you referenced, both were banned from the game and are not presently eligible for induction. Should the Commissioner, however, allow Rose in (I hope not), he would have to open the doors for Jackson and Cicotte (2 of the 1919 White Sox players banned) to enter as well.

Fitty was around during the time of Jackson and Cicotte so he could easily vouch for them.

Boomer Sooner

HAHAHAHA!

Well played! Get ready for him to reply with some words we don't know the meaning of........

Back to the HOF. The baseball HOF is by far the toughest to get into. It's a good thing I guess, but I would have put Maris in just for that one magical season. And I disagree with plaino on the players he listed that shouldn't be there. I guess I'm just to easy.........

 

[fortworth4ou2]

K2C,

By all accounts, Maris was a super person and teammate. Low-key, reserved yet very personable in the locker room. Easy to see why he was so admired in New York by the fans and players alike. Because stats and position played are relative, I don't believe Maris will ever get in.

I read somewhere that the 1961 record setting year took such a huge toll on Maris' psyche. One account included something about ulcers. I'm of the opinion that had he hit slightly fewer that year than the idolized Mantle's 54, the pressure in New York would not have been so intense for him and his overall numbers might've been much better than they were. If so, he would've stood a great chance for enshrinement.

Boomer Sooner

 

[K2C Sooner]

K2C,

By all accounts, Maris was a super person and teammate. Low-key, reserved yet very personable in the locker room. Easy to see why he was so admired in New York by the fans and players alike. Because stats and position played are relative, I don't believe Maris will ever get in.

I read somewhere that the 1961 record setting year took such a huge toll on Maris' psyche. One account included something about ulcers. I'm of the opinion that had he hit slightly fewer that year than the idolized Mantle's 54, the pressure in New York would not have been so intense for him and his overall numbers might've been much better than they were. If so, he would've stood a great chance for enshrinement.

Boomer Sooner

I don't know if you have ever seen this movie, but if not you would enjoy it. Like I said, it's a good thing I have no say for induction in the HOF. I'm to easy. My edit: It is haunting how much the actors in this movie resembled the original pair. It took me back to my childhood watching games on CBS and playing with my baseball cards...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/61*

 

[K2C Sooner]

I don't know if you have ever seen this movie, but if not you would enjoy it. Like I said, it's a good thing I have no say for induction in the HOF. I'm to easy. My edit: It is haunting how much the actors in this movie resembled the original pair. It took me back to my childhood watching games on CBS and playing with my baseball cards...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/61*

Video trailer................. Well worth two minutes of your time.

 

[fortworth4ou2]

We're a little more than a week away from the 2015 HOF induction ceremonies. I found it interesting Googling some of the stats of those already enshrined. For those interested, check out:

19th Century Players:

Tommy McCarthy
Bid McPhee

Early 20th Century (Dead-Ball Era, 1900 - 1920):

Roger Bresnahan (catcher)
Ray Schalk (catcher)
Joe Tinker (Shortstop)
Johnny Evers (2ndB)

Live Ball Era (1920 - 1940):

George "Highpockets" Kelly
Freddie Lindstrom (although a lifetime .311 hitter)

WWII Era (1940's):

Hal Newhouser

Baby Boomers Era (1950's - early 1960's):

Bill Mazeroski (2nd B)
Nellie Fox (2ndB)
Jim Bunning

The 19th Century players were known mostly as innovators, not for their meager overall stats.

The 2 Dead-Ball Era catchers were also known mostly as innovators or for their defense and number of games played (demanding position). As for Tinker and Evers, they were middle infielders and played together for the early century dominant Cubs teams. Known more for their defense (not too impressive with the bat as they mostly played small ball), it helped that they were immortalized as part of the famous double play combination - Tinker to Evers to Chance (1B).

Kelly (1B) and Lindstrom (3B), corner infielders, played during the Live Ball Era when most of the all-time single season hitting records were established. The Roaring 20's produced many batters having .400 BA seasons most notably Cobb, Hornsby, and Sisler. And, Babe Ruth set the HR standards. Kelly and Lindstrom - low power numbers - had good careers but not great especially for the era played.

Newhouser was basically a lousy pitcher until most players went into the military. He was deferred and became a great war-time pitcher. After the really great players returned 4-6 years later, Newhouser had a decent year or two but his performance and stats showed a dramatic drop. Still, his 207-150 W/L record with 3 20-win seasons (the war years of 1944-1946) were somewhat pedestrian in comparison to the truly greats and his success was during a vastly diluted talent period.

As for the Baby Boomer Era, Mazeroski and Fox were decent hitters but much better defensive players. They also were 2nd Basemen which made their overall stats more relevant and noteworthy. Their stats only played well for a middle infielder and would've been merely average at any other position.

Bunning was a decent but not great pitcher. His 224-184 W/L and 3.27 ERA record was solid but similar to those of Dennis Martinez (see my opening post) who is not enshrined. Bunning's claim to fame otherwise is that he won 100 games in each league, a feat not done since Cy Young at the turn of the 20th Century. Probably didn't hurt that he was later a U.S. Congressman. Lew Burdette had nearly a similar career as Bunning but he was not inducted.

Interesting the reasoning behind the election of some of these HOF'ers. Players of similar ilk and reputation (or better) never made it.

I wonder how long it will take for Jack Morris to get in - if he ever does.

Boomer Sooner

 

[fortworth4ou2]

Video trailer................. Well worth two minutes of your time.

View embedded media

Excellent trailer. Thanks K2C.

Boomer Sooner

 

[K2C Sooner]

We're a little more than a week away from the 2015 HOF induction ceremonies. I found it interesting Googling some of the stats of those already enshrined. For those interested, check out:

19th Century Players:

Tommy McCarthy
Bid McPhee

Early 20th Century (Dead-Ball Era, 1900 - 1920):

Roger Bresnahan (catcher)
Ray Schalk (catcher)
Joe Tinker (Shortstop)
Johnny Evers (2ndB)

Live Ball Era (1920 - 1940):

George "Highpockets" Kelly
Freddie Lindstrom (although a lifetime .311 hitter)

WWII Era (1940's):

Hal Newhouser

Baby Boomers Era (1950's - early 1960's):

Bill Mazeroski (2nd B)
Nellie Fox (2ndB)
Jim Bunning

The 19th Century players were known mostly as innovators, not for their meager overall stats.

The 2 Dead-Ball Era catchers were also known mostly as innovators or for their defense and number of games played (demanding position). As for Tinker and Evers, they were middle infielders and played together for the early century dominant Cubs teams. Known more for their defense (not too impressive with the bat as they mostly played small ball), it helped that they were immortalized as part of the famous double play combination - Tinker to Evers to Chance (1B).

Kelly (1B) and Lindstrom (3B), corner infielders, played during the Live Ball Era when most of the all-time single season hitting records were established. The Roaring 20's produced many batters having .400 BA seasons most notably Cobb, Hornsby, and Sisler. And, Babe Ruth set the HR standards. Kelly and Lindstrom - low power numbers - had good careers but not great especially for the era played.

Newhouser was basically a lousy pitcher until most players went into the military. He was deferred and became a great war-time pitcher. After the really great players returned 4-6 years later, Newhouser had a decent year or two but his performance and stats showed a dramatic drop. Still, his 207-150 W/L record with 3 20-win seasons (the war years of 1944-1946) were somewhat pedestrian in comparison to the truly greats and his success was during a vastly diluted talent period.

As for the Baby Boomer Era, Mazeroski and Fox were decent hitters but much better defensive players. They also were 2nd Basemen which made their overall stats more relevant and noteworthy. Their stats only played well for a middle infielder and would've been merely average at any other position.

Bunning was a decent but not great pitcher. His 224-184 W/L and 3.27 ERA record was solid but similar to those of Dennis Martinez (see my opening post) who is not enshrined. Bunning's claim to fame otherwise is that he won 100 games in each league, a feat not done since Cy Young at the turn of the 20th Century. Probably didn't hurt that he was later a U.S. Congressman. Lew Burdette had nearly a similar career as Bunning but he was not inducted.

Interesting the reasoning behind the election of some of these HOF'ers. Players of similar ilk and reputation (or better) never made it.

I wonder how long it will take for Jack Morris to get in - if he ever does.

Boomer Sooner

I have a Lew Burdette signed baseball along with Warren Spann and Sandy Koufax and a few(strike that) several others (Same Ball).

I think I may have told this story before....One of my employees wife was a beer cart driver at a golf charity event in Broken Arrow. Her job was to supply drinks to all the celebrities that showed up. She would give them a beer for a signature. Koufax would have nothing to do about it. I SALE MY SIGNATURE! was his answer. Well he ended up signing a ball for every beer he drank as the wife stood her ground. I got one of them in my basement..............LOL

I think, will have to check, Eddie Matthews signed that ball. The second best third baseman of my generation behind Brooks Robinson. Kenny Boyer third.....JMO

Darn, now I'm going to have to dig out all my stuff in the basement.. I know I have a Johnny Bench,Willie Mayes, Lou Brock, Bob Gibson and more signed baseballs.

 

[CTOkie]

2 serious questions for baseball fanatics:

1. Who has been inducted into the Hall of Fame but is questionable and should not have been?

2. Who is eligible for the HOF but has been omitted?

Please provide your rationale. Thanks.

Boomer Sooner

Who should not be in...IMO:
Bill Mazeroski.....one swing as a 23 year old got him in.
Phil Rizzuto.....a NYC and Yankees icon, but not HOF worthy. Not by a long shot.

Who should be....IMO:
Mike Mussina....compare his career with HOF'er Jim Palmer. Palmer had much better career ERA and post season numbers (8-3 vs Mussina's 7-8), but his Orioles teams in 1966, 1969, 1970 and 1971 were some of the best teams I ever saw....not so much with Mussina's Yankees teams (2001-2008). And the batters Palmer faced weren't juiced.
Bernie Williams.... .297 BA, solidified CF for 16 years for the Yankees and was prolific in the clutch.
Louis Tiant
Dwight Evans
Alan Trammell
Lou Whittaker
Allie Reynolds....7-2 in World Series play, with 4 saves....182-107 is pretty good and Reynolds may have won more games except that he was often called upon in clutch relief situations. Most underrated Yankee pitcher ever.

 

[sybarite]

Will any of the players who broke Ruth's record ever be in the Hall?

I have no doubt that Maris would be in the Hall for that one feat had it not been in NY with Mantle going for the dame record. It's all about sports writers and favorites. Maris was more than a one-year wonder. The previous year was his best year. He was a two-time MVP, which would usually get you into the Hall. But, I will remember Maris for something else. His teams tended to win. He went to St.Louis and had two very mediocre years, and the Cards went to the World Series twice. He played well at critical times. Orlando Cepeda had that. Wherever he went, his teams won.

If there is one player that I would like to see in the Hall, it might be Minoso. He was about all that the White Sox had that could hit more than singles. He led the league in doubles and triples a few times. He led in stolen bases a few times. He was always high on the list for SP and on base percentage, possibly because he led the league in being hit by pitch ten times. I''ve never even seen a push for him.

I think a good case could be made for Mike Cuellar. Johnny Sain and Sal Maglie need to be there either as pitchers or pitching coaches.

 

[fortworth4ou2]

Who should not be in...IMO:
Bill Mazeroski.....one swing as a 23 year old got him in.
Phil Rizzuto.....a NYC and Yankees icon, but not HOF worthy. Not by a long shot.

Who should be....IMO:
Mike Mussina....compare his career with HOF'er Jim Palmer. Palmer had much better career ERA and post season numbers (8-3 vs Mussina's 7-8), but his Orioles teams in 1966, 1969, 1970 and 1971 were some of the best teams I ever saw....not so much with Mussina's Yankees teams (2001-2008). And the batters Palmer faced weren't juiced.
Bernie Williams.... .297 BA, solidified CF for 16 years for the Yankees and was prolific in the clutch.
Louis Tiant
Dwight Evans
Alan Trammell
Lou Whittaker
Allie Reynolds....7-2 in World Series play, with 4 saves....182-107 is pretty good and Reynolds may have won more games except that he was often called upon in clutch relief situations. Most underrated Yankee pitcher ever.

Mussina will get in CT

Reynolds pitched briefly as a 27 year old rookie with Cleveland during the war years so he got a late start to his career. He had the arm but many will hold his sub-200 win career against him. He was a very consistent pitcher ala Dennis Martinez without as many wins. Nowadays, if you win less than 200 games it helps if it was due to a devastating injury as in the careers of Dizzy Dean and Koufax.

Like Trammell and Whitaker's chances a lot. Same with Tiant.

Boomer Sooner

 

[fortworth4ou2]

Will any of the players who broke Ruth's record ever be in the Hall?

I have no doubt that Maris would be in the Hall for that one feat had it not been in NY with Mantle going for the dame record. It's all about sports writers and favorites. Maris was more than a one-year wonder. The previous year was his best year. He was a two-time MVP, which would usually get you into the Hall. But, I will remember Maris for something else. His teams tended to win. He went to St.Louis and had two very mediocre years, and the Cards went to the World Series twice. He played well at critical times. Orlando Cepeda had that. Wherever he went, his teams won.

If there is one player that I would like to see in the Hall, it might be Minoso. He was about all that the White Sox had that could hit more than singles. He led the league in doubles and triples a few times. He led in stolen bases a few times. He was always high on the list for SP and on base percentage, possibly because he led the league in being hit by pitch ten times. I''ve never even seen a push for him.

I think a good case could be made for Mike Cuellar. Johnny Sain and Sal Maglie need to be there either as pitchers or pitching coaches.

Minoso is an intriguing possibility. Started very late as he was a 29 year old rookie. He, like Allie Reynolds, packed solid numbers in a relatively small time frame. I don't believe either gets in.

No way for Sain and Maglie. Low career numbers. Cuellar, like Dave McNally (both personal favorites of mine), had very solid careers but did not produce those high end stats. Both are in a similar category as Reynolds and Minoso.

Boomer Sooner

 

[fortworth4ou2]

I have a Lew Burdette signed baseball along with Warren Spann and Sandy Koufax and a few(strike that) several others (Same Ball).

I think I may have told this story before....One of my employees wife was a beer cart driver at a golf charity event in Broken Arrow. Her job was to supply drinks to all the celebrities that showed up. She would give them a beer for a signature. Koufax would have nothing to do about it. I SALE MY SIGNATURE! was his answer. Well he ended up signing a ball for every beer he drank as the wife stood her ground. I got one of them in my basement..............LOL

I think, will have to check, Eddie Matthews signed that ball. The second best third baseman of my generation behind Brooks Robinson. Kenny Boyer third.....JMO

Darn, now I'm going to have to dig out all my stuff in the basement.. I know I have a Johnny Bench,Willie Mayes, Lou Brock, Bob Gibson and more signed baseballs.

Good stuff K2C. Valuable autographs.

I had a boyhood friend who vacationed in Arizona in the early '60's and went to a Cubs-Giants exhibition game. He brought back a scorecard with the signatures of Mays, McCovey, Cepeda and Banks. It was a gift for me. A very cherished item.

Boomer Sooner

 

[Soonersincefitty]

Dang fellows, flogging ole fitty pretty good there.

It's OK really, no such thing as bad notoriety...

 

[TexShoe]

Is Burt Blyleven in the hall yet?

 

[CTOkie]

2 serious questions for baseball fanatics:

1. Who has been inducted into the Hall of Fame but is questionable and should not have been?

2. Who is eligible for the HOF but has been omitted?

Please provide your rationale. Thanks.

Boomer Sooner

The apparel that Craig Biggio and his sons will wear in the Hall of Fame ceremony this year were sold to him by my nephew in Houston from the Ermenegildo-Zegna store at The Galleria. A big commission and an autographed ball was a nice reward for my nephew.

 

[fortworth4ou2]

Is Burt Blyleven in the hall yet?

Yes.

Boomer Sooner

 

[fortworth4ou2]

The apparel that Craig Biggio and his sons will wear in the Hall of Fame ceremony this year were sold to him by my nephew in Houston from the Ermenegildo-Zegna store at The Galleria. A big commission and an autographed ball was a nice reward for my nephew.

Screw the commission (not really), the ball rocks my world!

Boomer Sooner

 

[Plainosooner]

Maris had 2 great seasons - back-to-back - during the expansion years of the early '60's when some players had their career years. That was pretty much it. His claim to fame otherwise is that he played for the storied Yankees which at that time was loaded with talent due significantly to their KC A's pipeline. Thus, he had many World Series opportunities (both in New York and St. Louis)

As an outfielder, his overall stats were good, not great, and, IMHO, not Hall worthy. Had he been a catcher, 2nd baseman or shortstop, his overall numbers would've possibly been worthy. But, he wasn't.

As for Fisk (great stats for a Catcher), Williams and Rice (both OF's with or near 400+ homers and near 1500 RBI's), their stats were far, far superior to Maris. Field position and stats are relative.

Maris: 275 HR's, 851 RBI's, and .260 BA.

I like Maris a lot but not for the Hall.

I, too, hope the 'roiders never make it in.

Boomer Sooner

I'm not agreeing, obviously, but Maris' first MVP season was before expansion. And I saw this about him, as a Yankee hater. If you look at the stats of the HoF position players from that era, there are several with stats that were less than eye popping. When Maris went to the Cardinals, it was during the years of the raised pitching mound and a bigger strike zone. Watch Bob Gibson's 17 strike out performance in the 1968 World Series that you can see online, and you won't believe the strike zone. It is close to double the size of the 80s and 90s. Carlton Fisk's average was .269 in an era when batting averages were considerably higher. And Fisk was a slightly above average defensive catcher. Okay arm. Called a good game. Decent at blocking the ball in the dirt.

Talk about getting in on one swing .... And his team LOST that World Series.

Mazeroski didn't get into the Hall for being the only player to win the World Series with a home run in the bottom of the 9th in game seven. He got into the Hall for being the best defensive 2nd baseman from his era, who annually led the majors in double plays participated in. Forbes Field in Pittsburgh was a horrible place to play good defense. Consider the bad hop on Kubek that turned game seven in 1960. But Maz was considered a great defensive second baseman. Anyone, including FW, that looked at some stat sheet and called him anything but a great second baseman doesn't know what he's talking about. He got in for his defense. His dramatic home run was just icing on that cake.

 

[Salt City Sooner]

Fred McGriff, Tim Raines, & Dwight Evans stick out to me.

McGriff (why did you let him go New York? WHY??? )- 493 HR, 1,550 RBI, 2,490 hits, 1,349 runs, .284 Avg. 5 time All star

Raines- .294 Avg., 2,605 hits, 1,571 runs, 808 stolen bases (was caught only 146 times, that's an 85% success rate, considerably better than Henderson or Brock, FWIW), 7 time All Star, won the '86 NL Batting title

Evans- 385 HR, 1,384 RBI, .272 Avg, 1,470 runs, & as anybody who saw him play, one of the greatest guns to ever patrol an outfield. Won 8 Gold Gloves in a 10 year span. Even as a Yankee fan, I'd watch a Red Sox game just to see if someone would get silly & try to run on him.

 

[fortworth4ou2]

Plaino,

You are correct in that Maris won the AL MVP in 1960. Expansion did not occur until 1961. So he actually had 3 solid to great years (1960 - 1962).

Who are these "HOF position players from that era..." whose "stats were less than eye popping"? Include them in your analysis so their merits can be further discussed. Remember, it is my position that stats are relative to position played. Maris' OVERALL stats were good for an outfielder but not great. His overall stat line is inferior, IMO, to that of 2-time batting champ Tony Oiva (had to overcome horrendous knee injuries at the height of his career) whom I believe is more deserving than Maris.

It's easy for people to get emotional about Maris with his back-to-back MVP seasons in which the second year was the single season HR record. Consider, though, that the feared Mantle protected Maris in the batting order - much like Gehrig did for Ruth - and hit 54 - his career high - that year himself. Imagine for a moment 2 teammates competing for the HR record in the same year. Other than the McGwire - Sosa 'roid race, no other situation to my knowledge compares and they were not teammates. Yankee stadium also had that very inviting and short right field porch for a power lefty like Maris to tattoo. Shades of the old Phillies Chuck Klein and the old Baker Bowl right field dimensions. It's also noteworthy that the Yankees ran away with the team HR title that year.

1961 was the expansion season when the talent level throughout the league was diluted. Just like Maris, others had their career year in 1961. For example, consider:

Norm Cash: .361 BA (led the league), 41 HR, 132 RBI. This was early in his Tigers career. He would NEVER again for a single season over a lengthy career hit as many as 40 HR, bat .300, or have 100 RBI.

Jim Gentile, a 2nd year player, hit .302, 46 HR, and 141 RBI (only 1 behind Maris for the league lead). He would NEVER again for a single season over a lengthy career hit as many as 40 HR, bat .300, or have 100 RBI.

Maris knocked in 100 runs only once more (1962 when he had exactly 100) and NEVER hit 40 HR again in his career. Magic and fortuitous circumstances indeed for Maris in that magical year. His career ended in 1968 which, if I remember correctly, was the year the raised pitcher's mound existed.

I am compelled to ask, what purpose does it serve to compare the stats of an outfielder (Maris) to that of a catcher (Fisk), if that is what you are doing?. If so, that would be an apples to oranges comparison, again, if that is what you are suggesting. One would be better served comparing people of same positions to get a true read. Catcher is a far more demanding position than that of an outfielder. Even still, at .a .271 career BA, Fisk was 11 points higher than Maris, hit 61 more career HR's, and knocked in 316 more runs than Maris (Maris didn't come close to the main standard for power hitters of 1000 or more RBI's). Only Johnny Bench and Yogi Berra (HOF catchers) hit more HR's in a career than Fisk at the time of his retirement and was 3rd in career games played at his position. Very durable. Fisk was much more than a single event player. And, He had much better career stats than Maris.

It's not a big deal but you appear to be unnecessarily insulting and over-sensitive, IMO, regarding my thoughts on Maz. Scroll back up and you will see that I acknowledged his defensive prowess (his best asset, btw). He was basically little more than one-dimensional (defense). His career stat line of ..260 BA/138 HR/853 RBI only play up to HOF consideration primarily for a catcher or middle infielder unless of course, they possess a top-notch speed component (ala Clyde Milan - also not in the HOF) on their resume. .

My assessment is just MY opinion and if yours differs, great. Neither mine nor yours HAS to be a superior one.

Boomer Sooner

 

[fortworth4ou2]

Fred McGriff, Tim Raines, & Dwight Evans stick out to me.

McGriff (why did you let him go New York? WHY??? )- 493 HR, 1,550 RBI, 2,490 hits, 1,349 runs, .284 Avg. 5 time All star

Raines- .294 Avg., 2,605 hits, 1,571 runs, 808 stolen bases (was caught only 146 times, that's an 85% success rate, considerably better than Henderson or Brock, FWIW), 7 time All Star, won the '86 NL Batting title

Evans- 385 HR, 1,384 RBI, .272 Avg, 1,470 runs, & as anybody who saw him play, one of the greatest guns to ever patrol an outfield. Won 8 Gold Gloves in a 10 year span. Even as a Yankee fan, I'd watch a Red Sox game just to see if someone would get silly & try to run on him.

Good candidates SLCS. CT also mentioned Evans.

Boomer Sooner

 

[CTOkie]

I'm not agreeing, obviously, but Maris' first MVP season was before expansion. And I saw this about him, as a Yankee hater. If you look at the stats of the HoF position players from that era, there are several with stats that were less than eye popping. When Maris went to the Cardinals, it was during the years of the raised pitching mound and a bigger strike zone. Watch Bob Gibson's 17 strike out performance in the 1968 World Series that you can see online, and you won't believe the strike zone. It is close to double the size of the 80s and 90s. Carlton Fisk's average was .269 in an era when batting averages were considerably higher. And Fisk was a slightly above average defensive catcher. Okay arm. Called a good game. Decent at blocking the ball in the dirt.

Talk about getting in on one swing .... And his team LOST that World Series.

Mazeroski didn't get into the Hall for being the only player to win the World Series with a home run in the bottom of the 9th in game seven. He got into the Hall for being the best defensive 2nd baseman from his era, who annually led the majors in double plays participated in. Forbes Field in Pittsburgh was a horrible place to play good defense. Consider the bad hop on Kubek that turned game seven in 1960. But Maz was considered a great defensive second baseman. Anyone, including FW, that looked at some stat sheet and called him anything but a great second baseman doesn't know what he's talking about. He got in for his defense. His dramatic home run was just icing on that cake.

I saw Mazeroski play throughout the 1960's and he was a brilliant defender, especially at turning double plays, but Roberto Alomar was the best 2B I saw, with his range and athleticism, aside from his offensive numbers which included a lifetime .300 average and over 2,700 hits.
I like Mazeroski and I'm glad a man like him has attained such an honor....I just do not believe a player should be in the HOF because he excelled in one area.....and in one at bat in the bottom of the ninth of a 7th game in the World Series....if he was average in other areas. A very good player just the same.
And if one at bat got Mazeroski, good for him. But he's hardly a "Mount Rushmore" talent as far as HOF inductions go. And so are a few others who are in Cooperstown.

 

[MdSooner#1]

Will any of the players who broke Ruth's record ever be in the Hall?

I have no doubt that Maris would be in the Hall for that one feat had it not been in NY with Mantle going for the dame record. It's all about sports writers and favorites. Maris was more than a one-year wonder. The previous year was his best year. He was a two-time MVP, which would usually get you into the Hall. But, I will remember Maris for something else. His teams tended to win. He went to St.Louis and had two very mediocre years, and the Cards went to the World Series twice. He played well at critical times. Orlando Cepeda had that. Wherever he went, his teams won.

If there is one player that I would like to see in the Hall, it might be Minoso. He was about all that the White Sox had that could hit more than singles. He led the league in doubles and triples a few times. He led in stolen bases a few times. He was always high on the list for SP and on base percentage, possibly because he led the league in being hit by pitch ten times. I''ve never even seen a push for him.

I think a good case could be made for Mike Cuellar. Johnny Sain and Sal Maglie need to be there either as pitchers or pitching coaches.

I have a signed baseball bat by Mike Cuellar and an autograph pic of him. Him not being in the hall is shameful.


Also, for others that might not know this. Both Maris and Mantle were both offered football scholarships at The University Of Oklahoma. Mantle decided to take a signing bonus and play for the Damn Yanks

 

[MdSooner#1]

I saw Mazeroski play throughout the 1960's and he was a brilliant defender, especially at turning double plays, but Roberto Alomar was the best 2B I saw, with his range and athleticism, aside from his offensive numbers which included a lifetime .300 average and over 2,700 hits.
I like Mazeroski and I'm glad a man like him has attained such an honor....I just do not believe a player should be in the HOF because he excelled in one area.....and in one at bat in the bottom of the ninth of a 7th game in the World Series....if he was average in other areas. A very good player just the same.
And if one at bat got Mazeroski, good for him. But he's hardly a "Mount Rushmore" talent as far as HOF inductions go. And so are a few others who are in Cooperstown.

Roberto Alomar AKA the "spitter"! Orioles fans do not have good memories of him. Of course we weren't very good back then either.

 

[fortworth4ou2]

I like Robbie, not the incident.

Boomer Sooner

 

[sybarite]

A story on Yahoo right now lists seven Hall of Famers who should not be there: Ted Lyons, Bill Mazeroski, Phil Rizzuto, Lefty Gomez, Highpockets Kelly, and a couple of others that I don't remember (story now gone). I didn't see all of these in their prime, nor did I see them on a regular basis. I will make only one comment.

If I were to start a baseball franchise, the first player that I might pick might well be Ozzie Smith. Having that position, catcher, and pitching pretty solid means you have some control over the game. The article indicated that Ozzie only hit about 262 as a lifetime average (Rizzuto not much more). If in the average week, you come to bat twenty official times, the difference between 250 and 300 is one hit per week. I think Ozzie probably took three hits a week away from the other team's offense. Thus, Ozzie was a 400 hitter?

I was a huge fan of Aparacio who seemed to be the first that made defense into a specialty. I like the defense that can take away hits and runs. I still remember the John McGraw retort when asked why he wasn't starting a 400 hitting rookie in Spring Drills: "because he's only fielding 400."

The baseball fan and media have always been in love with the power hitter or the strikeout pitcher. The teams that win tend to have a lot of doubles hitters that get them into scoring position, keep a harassing runner on base. The teams that can use speed to create doubles and triples and take hits away have a huge advantage. Think Dodgers with Willie Davis, Tommy Davis, and Maury Wills. Look at how few home runs those teams hit---or the Cardinals under Whitey. The transforming traits were people like Wills and Brock who could get the extra base and take away hits with speed. I still remember a Reds team that tied the HR record and finished fifth.

The article also mentioned that other shortstops had a higher fielding percentage than Ozzie. He never saw Ozzie. Ozzie got errors on balls that other shortstops didn't even try for. He could throw runners out from deep in the hole with not the strongest arm because of his quickness at getting the throw off. I remember shortstops who looked really good on paper because they were 290 to 320 hitters and never made errors. But, they also had the range of a sloth, not even trying for balls hit six feet to the left or right.

It so happens that Mantle and Mays could play pretty good defense in center, which is important. The White Sox won with Landis in center, and he was not your basic power hitter. He had range and played solid defense. Willie Davis was only about a 260 hitter in center for the Dodgers. They kept winning.

Give me defense up the middle. Of course, Bench could also catch. Some very great catchers couldn't hit. But, their teams won. Shem Lollar was one that nobody remembers. Won with two different teams. Wes Westrum was lost in the Berra/Campanella comparisons, but the Giants did win the pennant.

But, I want a shortstop with range and magical powers. It probably means a hit a game.

 

[fortworth4ou2]

After your first paragraph Sybarite, I'm not sure where your post is going or how it relates to this thread.

The HOF is more in tune with individual stats/accomplishments and longevity. Playing winning ball is team oriented. A team can become a dynasty with a slew of .260 hitters as long as they receive timely/clutch hitting and excel at pitching and defense. Doesn't necessarily make their hitters, defenders, or pitchers worthy of the Hall.

If one-dimensional (defense, for example) superlative play was primarily a sole and legitimate HOF factor, Mark Belanger and Al Weiss - and many others of their ilk - would've been enshrined. There is a reason they weren't.

Clete Boyer was a clutch hitter with pop for the Yankees and was an outstanding defender but he is not - and will not - make the Hall. There are hundreds of really good but not great players just like him that won't make it either. Elston Howard, Earl Battey, Johnny Roseboro and many others were better catchers than your Wes Westrum. Don't look for them to get in the Hall either. I believe that had Hobie Landrith been the catcher instead of Westrum, the Giants would not have skipped a beat.

The 1906 Chicago White Sox "Hitless Wonders" had a team batting average of .230 yet they defeated the powerhouse Cubs in the World Series. The Sox exemplified team success with clutch hitting, solid defense and a superb pitching staff. Their only non-pitcher HOF'er was infielder George Davis who had a successful and long career mostly with the New York Giants prior to his brief stint with Chicago

I'm not disputing the merits of the players you mention and how they help a team be successful. Ozzie and Aparicio are already in the Hall and Wills may eventually make it too. Are you suggesting that the Davis', Lollar, and Westrum should be in the Hall because of their team successes? IMHO, they won't.

The premise of this thread was who is in the Hall that shouldn't be and who should be in but isn't.

Boomer Sooner

 

[sybarite]

Actually, I was disputing the idea that a defensive player, like Ozzie, shouldn't be in the Hall.

I also disagree with the premise that statistics on offense should be the only consideration for the Hall. There have been players that have had sensational statistics that I wouldn't want on my team. If the statistics don't contribute to the goal of winning, that person shouldn't be in the Hall.

I will be surprised if a particular player does not make it into the Hall of Fame. He has the stats. But, I remember him as someone who was the star of a team that was losing. At mid-season, they traded him to a pennant contender who was winning. The losing team had a winning percentage over the last eighty games, and the winning team had a losing record over the last eighty games. I don't want a Hall of Famer like that on my team.

I've seen players who can pad their statistics with alacrity. With the score already 3-0, they can hit a home run, or even two, that would make it 8-0. But, if the team is one down in the ninth, you will never see even a single from them. Their 100 rbis don't mean much to me if they can't come at a time when it would win a game.

I'm impressed with Cepeda because he went to three different teams and won pennants with each. They really had difficulty winning without him. He was known as a good teammate. He could get a key hit in a 2-1 game. The name of the game is winning, and I want Hall of Fame members who contributed to winning.

 

[ellissooner]

2 serious questions for baseball fanatics:

1. Who has been inducted into the Hall of Fame but is questionable and should not have been?

2. Who is eligible for the HOF but has been omitted?

Please provide your rationale. Thanks.

Boomer Sooner

2. Fred McGriff should been in the Hall of Fame with his 490 + homeruns and I dont remember hearing his name in the steroids or hgh conversations.

 

[fortworth4ou2]

Ozzie Smith was not a one-dimensional player. He was a Bill Mazeroski at the pivotal shortstop position but with speed - lots of it. He stole almost 600 bases to go with his brilliant defense. That speed component I mentioned earlier in this thread. His overall offensive stats were also in Maz's arena. He was far more qualified than Maz, imho, and I don't have a problem with Ozzie's induction.

I take it that you weren't an Ernie Banks fan and dispute his enshrinement. A power hitting (record setting) shortstop - and eventual 1B - for nearly 2 decades with the hapless Cubs. I guess he was just a terrible teammate, right? I guess he should've been left out of the Hall because the Cubs couldn't win with him. I guess in your eyes he was just dragging his team down. That shameful stat padder, right?

Jackie Robinson was a star 2B for the bulk of his career with the great Dodgers teams of the '40's and 50's. They won several pennants during his tenure but couldn't win the World Series - the biggest stage for a player - as a full-time player even with all his chances. In the twilight of his career when his skills were greatly diminished and he was rendered a part-timer, the Dodgers finally prevailed over the Yankees in '55. He must've been dragging his team down, right? I guess he was just padding his stats all those years and shouldn't be in the Hall, right?

A great player (Cepeda) being moved to a great team (primarily the Giants and Cardinals) can make all the difference to a team's great success. Look at the economically resourceful Yankees model. Ruth, Maris, Pennock, Mays, Hoyt, Ruffing, etc. Not to mention the free-agent Yankees like Reggie Jackson and seemingly 3/5th's of their teams in the Free Agency era.

Your views on the Hall seems a little strange. Maybe it's just me with the odd views.

Boomer Sooner

 

[WP76]

I wish Dale Murphy had been selected. The HoF constantly harps on the importance of character in its inductees; Murphy had it in spades. Two time MVP, Gold Glove defense, etc. made him [edited] at least as worthy as, say, Jim Rice. But, when all is said and done, politics figures into HoF voting as it does nearly every other selection process. The political pull of Red Sox Nation [edited] helped Rice into the Hall while an always apathetic Braves fanbase pretty much allowed "Murph" to languish.

 

[CTOkie]

Jim Rice in 16 years had 2452 hits, 382 homers, 1451 rbi and a lifetime BA of .298.
Dale Murphy in 18 years has 2111 hits, 398 homers, 1266 rbi and a lifetime BA of .265.

 

[WP76]

Jim Rice in 16 years had 2452 hits, 382 homers, 1451 rbi and a lifetime BA of .298.
Dale Murphy in 18 years has 2111 hits, 398 homers, 1266 rbi and a lifetime BA of .265.

Point taken. I just look at Murphy's back to back MVPs, five straight Gold Gloves and four straight Silver Sluggers (none of which Rice can match) as why I believe Murphy is at least as deserving. IIRC Rice also had far more protection in the lineup that Murphy usually had on some awful Braves teams in the 1980s. Murphy's resume and career numbers were killed by the fact that he "flamed out" so quickly with four extremely nondescript years in Philadelphia and Colorado at the end of his ML career. To his credit, Rice was able to keep things on a much more level keel while spending his entire career in Boston. Murphy had four years (two at the beginning and two at the end) in which he played fewer than 30 games which skew the numbers of his 18 year career.

As an aside CT don't you lose status in the Yankee fanbase by coming to the defense of a Red Sox player?