Must the B12 have to expand?
- Thread starter 12375CAT
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I think we need to expand, but the conference just can't add two schools for the sole reason of expanding back to 12 teams. The conference needs to get two schools that can bring something to the table. I am afraid that if the Big 12 doesn't expand, the Big 12 conference will be like the old SWC and dissolve. We need to add two quality schools.
The obvious answer is yes, but as RB 43 said, they must be quality schools/programs to elevate the status of the conference in the classroom and on the field/court/diamond, etc.
There aren't any of those available as far as I can see. We'd have to poach another conference, but who wants to come play Iowa State, Kansas, Texas Tech ... or, even worse, put up with the BS from Austin?
BYU is our best bet, but I have a sneaky suspicion that religion plays a bigger part than people here in the Bible Belt are willing to admit. On the other hand, we'd take Notre Dame in a heartbeat ... so I withdraw my earlier sentence. As they say on Saturday Night Live ... never mind.
Outsider here but w family in Ok. It seemed like the conf was full of politics when the Beebe fiasco took place. Iowa St vs Iowa, KSU w Kan, Ok State w Ok. Is it obvious or am I wrong, when adding these schools to the mix they cost the new conf to much money. I'd love to see Ok and Tex in the Big 10 but if they have to bring in some of the others the baggage charge will be more than the lst class tickets. Sorry to say but it's all about the money, Rutgers to the Big 10 proved that. Hope I offended no one. jmho.
Unfortunately the time to expand is long past. All of the quality programs have already aligned themselves with the other Power 4 conferences. If the Big XII crumbles (and it might) the cause for the demise lies squarely in Austin and to some degree with David Boren who allowed it to happen by siding with Texas instead of Nebraska and A&M five years ago.
My guess would be that OU (and Texas) eventually end up in the SEC. A&M led the way with the cutting of coat ties and OU will do the same to the Cowgirls. jmo
My guess would be that OU (and Texas) eventually end up in the SEC. A&M led the way with the cutting of coat ties and OU will do the same to the Cowgirls. jmo
It seems that OU is tied to Texas and Oklahoma State. If that is correct and there's no chance of severing ties with one or both, I don't see the Sooners in another conference anytime within the foreseeable future. That being the case, our (Oklahoma) best opportunity would be push hard for expansion because a 10 team conference isn't going to get the same consideration as the other major conferences with 14 or 16 teams. Maybe even a 12 team league won't be able to compete for votes needed in a four team playoff soon. Which brings us back to what several have posted over and over for the last couple of years......what university is available that the Big 12 can attract that brings something to the table for the current Big 12 members. Not many. So I think we will likely see schools in big TV markets that don't have much a history in football excellence get hard looks. There have been schools like Tulane mentioned, for example. Tulane! Houston is a big TV market possibility, but I don't think Texas will want another team from the Lone Star state in the conference, and we don't want to agitate the Long Horns do we??? That blows, so I will just finish.
I think either the Big XII needs to find a way to expand, or look to the ACC and work a deal to make a new conference with some teams from the ACC, and some from the Big XII. Me and a buddy who is a Texas fan was talking about this last night. As the Big XII stands right now, it's at a disadvantage against the other power conferences in competing for one of the 4 playoff spots. Baylor got a taste of that this past year, and sure there was some crying and such, but nobody really made a massive deal out of it since it was Baylor. But wait till that happens to a one loss OU or Texas and see what kind of nuclear explosion that sets off.
Myself, I really think the Big XII and the awful ACC are kinda in the same boat. Remember there was talk around the country if FSU really deserved a playoff spot going undefeated in the ACC. You would think OU would love to play some games at some of the ACC schools (like Clemson, GTech, and FSU), which is right in the SEC countries recruiting bread and butter.
Myself, I really think the Big XII and the awful ACC are kinda in the same boat. Remember there was talk around the country if FSU really deserved a playoff spot going undefeated in the ACC. You would think OU would love to play some games at some of the ACC schools (like Clemson, GTech, and FSU), which is right in the SEC countries recruiting bread and butter.
Forget expansion…..I would like to see the Big XII shrink…by exactly 1 team.
BillyRay, I would love it if the better Big 12 and ACC schools would form a conference, but I don't see the powers that be leaving out schools like Iowa State, who brings very little to almost any respectable conference. I'm with you, but it would take both conferences to agree to disassociate themselves from longtime rivals in some cases, which would be frowned upon by many......not by me. I don't have much loyalty to Iowa State with their wrestling or Kansas with their basketball history. Who knows what Kansas State will become when Bill Synder retires after next season or the season after? I know this is being pretty low, but IMO that's the attitude that schools like OU, Texas, FSU, Clemson, etc. must have to make a deal like that work. I'm probably going to get ripped, but I'm getting older by the day, and I want to see OU playing for national championships, and IMO the best way for the Sooners to do that to is to get better players and play in a super conference. The best players are going to schools that have a good opportunity to get to the big show. The Big 12 still attracts super athletes, but how long will that continue if there isn't a Big 12 team in the playoff mix every year...or at least 3 out of 4?
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I don't think it's being low at all. I think programs in both conferences right now need to face the fact they may need to make some VERY TOUGH decisions in the near future, or risk getting left out of the playoff picture on a regular basis. Or like you said, at least 3 out of every 4 years being left out. I don't see OU or Texas sitting idle and taking that for very long at all. Now I'm with you in regards to teams like Iowa State, KSU, and maybe even West Virginia or TTech. Me and my buddy both agreed last night that any move should keep OU and Texas together. But I don't think there is ANY way OU can maneuver into another conference without OSU being attached to OUs belt loop. But then again who thought we would see the day that Texas and A&M would have ended up cutting ties??
The 2nd part I underlined in your post I'm glad you mention it. It's another thing that will hurt OU more and more as the years go by if things remain how they are now. The Big XII has already been shut out of the first playoff. If it happens more and more, then why would ANY elite recruit in the country want to play in a conference that makes a habit of getting shut out of the title playoff more years than not?? That scenario simply means every year OU and the Big XII will become more and more irrelevant as they don't stand a chance in recruiting against the other power conference teams who actually have a legit path to the playoffs. I mean you think recruiting is down at OU the last few years, it's frightening how much further it could dip if recruits starts dodging Big XII programs like the plague.
I admit I'm not familiar with the rivalries and such in the ACC, so I just threw this together real quick and it may look completely absurd. So flame away if my little post here looks completely ridiculous hah
I'm just starting with 6 teams each from both the Big XII and the ACC. Then each conference can toss in another team to make a 14 team conference. 2 divisions and rotate playing teams from opposing divisions just like we did the Big XII days when we actually had 12 teams in the conference. Then a title game between division winners.
WEST .....................EAST
Oklahoma ..............FSU
Texas.....................Clemson
OSU.......................Miami
Baylor.....................GTech
TCU........................Duke
Kansas...................NCarolina
I know programs like Kansas, Duke and NCarolina are pretty weak in football, but that would keep the conference relevant come March Madness as well.
Like I said, I would add another team from each conference in each division, but kinda torn on which teams to go with. TTech, KSU from Big XII?? Louisville, NCState from ACC?? Maybe even West Virginia put in the east division? I left out the ACC teams further up north simply due to geographical reasons. Add those schools in and the conference footprint I think maybe gets too big??
I'm just starting with 6 teams each from both the Big XII and the ACC. Then each conference can toss in another team to make a 14 team conference. 2 divisions and rotate playing teams from opposing divisions just like we did the Big XII days when we actually had 12 teams in the conference. Then a title game between division winners.
WEST .....................EAST
Oklahoma ..............FSU
Texas.....................Clemson
OSU.......................Miami
Baylor.....................GTech
TCU........................Duke
Kansas...................NCarolina
I know programs like Kansas, Duke and NCarolina are pretty weak in football, but that would keep the conference relevant come March Madness as well.
Like I said, I would add another team from each conference in each division, but kinda torn on which teams to go with. TTech, KSU from Big XII?? Louisville, NCState from ACC?? Maybe even West Virginia put in the east division? I left out the ACC teams further up north simply due to geographical reasons. Add those schools in and the conference footprint I think maybe gets too big??
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Understand the concern, would love to see more of the old rivalry between Ok, Tex & Neb. Big area for coverage by fans but would think the breakup of the state of Texas would help. I lived in Ne during the Ok/Ne annual showdown and, it was some of the best football I've ever seen. At any rate, good luck, I hope a solution is found.
Holy Cow, BillyRay, you are reading my mind. We may tweak each other's conference membership a bit, but I doubt either of us would argue much about it. I truly believe a Big 12 - ACC combo gives OU the best and most doable option unless a "miracle" happens and the conference can attract both Notre Dame and BYU......not likely either university could be signed. The only other option would be to convince a couple of high profile schools to join up with the existing Big 12. My wish list would be for Nebraska and Arkansas to join the conference......that would be sweet, but even more unlikely than nabbing Notre Dame - BYU, IMO. But I digress.
Really like the Big 12 and hope we don't expand.
Collin Cowerd has started a rumor about the Big 12 dissolving with OU to SEC and Texas PAC. Would OU fans like joining the SEC?
Collin Cowerd has started a rumor about the Big 12 dissolving with OU to SEC and Texas PAC. Would OU fans like joining the SEC?
I think you guys are under estimating the value a school like UCF can have on your conference. UCF has a lot of upside as well. It wouldn't hurt to take a close look at Cinci and ECU. All three are probably better than your bottom feeders. Also all three expand your footprint. JMHO.
I just really hope we don't eventually end up in a different conference than TX and OSU. We lost possibly the best rival game in the country with us and Nebraska and it would be a shame if that also happened to the RRR or bedlam.
One problem you have is that Virginia and North Carolina are huge rivals. Almost as big as Duke. Nobody outside of either state realizes it, but they are. Ditto for NC State. That's one of the reasons the ACC has such goofy divisions, because North Carolina has to play Duke, NC State, and Virginia every year. I mean, has to play them every year.
One thing you have here is the problem the Big 12 already has, which is market size. You added Florida, which is good, but you still have way too much overlap. You have 3 schools from Texas, 2 from Florida, and 2 from North Carolina. All those redundancies hurt the TV contract, which is problem the Big 12 already has (and the ACC to some extent).
We had the Texas rivalry for ninety years without being in the same conference with them except for a couple of years around 1914 when we were in the SWC. We had the A&M (OSU) rivalry for a great number of years without being in the same conference.
I think the ship of expansion has sailed, and I don't think we will be proactive since our current thinking is so allied to Texas and A&M (OSU). But, the ship is a leaking old bucket that can't make it past the rough seas that are coming. We will have to hope for a lifeboat. The SEC or Pac 10 would take Texas gladly, just for all of those television sets. OU doesn't quite have that attraction and will have to sell itself on tradition. But, that tradition is suffering some short term tarnish, and we may be grasping for a conference when this ship sinks.
My preferences, in order: Big Ten, Pac Ten, ACC, form a new alliance with some dissatisfied members of conferences, SEC. We lived happily with Missouri and Nebraska for about eighty years, until Texas got into the middle. Nobody lives happily with Texas. They think they are an Independent football state, too.
I think the ship of expansion has sailed, and I don't think we will be proactive since our current thinking is so allied to Texas and A&M (OSU). But, the ship is a leaking old bucket that can't make it past the rough seas that are coming. We will have to hope for a lifeboat. The SEC or Pac 10 would take Texas gladly, just for all of those television sets. OU doesn't quite have that attraction and will have to sell itself on tradition. But, that tradition is suffering some short term tarnish, and we may be grasping for a conference when this ship sinks.
My preferences, in order: Big Ten, Pac Ten, ACC, form a new alliance with some dissatisfied members of conferences, SEC. We lived happily with Missouri and Nebraska for about eighty years, until Texas got into the middle. Nobody lives happily with Texas. They think they are an Independent football state, too.
Wow you really ARE crazy. This conference is awful, just awful. Please OU make the jump. That will force us to also jump. It's our only hope.
Re-allignment, the addition of other teams and/or the B12 dissolving would most likely come around at the next big time TV contract time.
As previously posted, I'm all for joining up with the better ACC schools to form a new conference, but that probably unlikely. I would rather join the SEC or next the Big Ten as a choice over the PAC Ten....I simply don't want to watch the Sooners play into Sunday mornings and I dislike Texas, but I hate Oregon and USC. Ohio State, too.
I can't speculate on what is being discussed behind closed doors on conference expansion, but I think it's possible that OU could exit the conference before the Big 12 decides to expand.
What was a great conference in the days that Nebraska, Texas A & M and Missouri were members is now no better than the 4th best conference behind the SEC, Big10 and PAC12....and I think it is to OU's future benefit to go elsewhere.
What was a great conference in the days that Nebraska, Texas A & M and Missouri were members is now no better than the 4th best conference behind the SEC, Big10 and PAC12....and I think it is to OU's future benefit to go elsewhere.
There are frequently knee jerk reactions when your team misses a playoff or another important milestone for some perceived conference shortcoming.
I think the biggest factor was Wisconsin's lay down in the Big Ten CCG. And a secondarily important factor was the Baylor and TCU played a less than stellar NC schedule. The Big XII had a better conference than the Big Ten last season, especially when you consider that you have to play everybody.
TCU deserved to be there. But Ohio State overcame a horrible loss at home to a mediocre VaTech team out of the conference and had about the best third team quarterback any of us ever saw. I wonder if he'll start this year.
I think the biggest factor was Wisconsin's lay down in the Big Ten CCG. And a secondarily important factor was the Baylor and TCU played a less than stellar NC schedule. The Big XII had a better conference than the Big Ten last season, especially when you consider that you have to play everybody.
TCU deserved to be there. But Ohio State overcame a horrible loss at home to a mediocre VaTech team out of the conference and had about the best third team quarterback any of us ever saw. I wonder if he'll start this year.
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Ohio State's loss to Virginia Tech last season was on September 6th. From that date on, Ohio State was a different team as it buried the likes of Wisconsin, Alabama and Oregon in its last three games. TCU narrowly escaped OU 37-33, West Virginia 31-30, Kansas 34-30 and gave up 61 points to Baylor....then beat a mediocre Ole Miss team that lost 4 of its last 6 games.Bottom line: Ohio State was the best team in college football after all the games were played in 2014.
I don't know about there being "knee jerk reactions" when you're a follower of Oklahoma, a team that has not won a conference championship outright since 2010 (in spite of losing two conference games) and whose star power has declined in recent years....both on a national level and within the Big 12. This is not "perceived". This has actually happened.
That's why 2015 will be a pivotal year for OU's program. Lots of good things must happen quickly, especially considering a very tough schedule. "Sooner Magic" has never been more necessary as the gap between where OU is now and winning any kind of championship has widened.
I don't think Ole Miss was a mediocre team. They were the only regular season team to be Alabama. Granted, they were missing their best player against TCU, but they still were a quality team with an outstanding defense and a resourceful quarterback and TCU mauled them.
Ohio State didn't really turn it on until their third team quarterback started playing. In mid November, the Buckeyes won by a touchdown against a Minnesota team that TCU slaughtered earlier, 30-7. Ohio State beat an average Indiana team that was defensively challenged, by two touchdowns at home. They trailed a lousy Michigan team in the first half, before eventually winning by two touchdowns at home. Those were the last two games of the regular season.
So it's not like tOSU became a monster that righted itself after that VaTech loss. They didn't become dominant until the post season. TCU's only loss wouldn't have been a loss if they'd been fairly treated in Waco. A non PI call on third down on their last possession, and then a less callable PI call against their defense that set up Baylor's winning field goal. Otherwise, TCU would have been undefeated. TCU was better than Baylor, but got a couple of bad breaks on the road.
If Ohio State hadn't totally blown out Wisconsin, I don't think they would have passed them in the last poll. And if Baylor hadn't been a one loss team, ,I don't think Ohio State would have passed them. The committee had a problem deciding between Baylor and TCU. Ohio State's big win over Wisconsin bailed them out. They didn't have to choose between either.
I also think that if it had been OU and Texas, rather than Baylor and TCU, that Ohio State would have been left out. But the powers of college football don't want that discussed.
Ohio State didn't really turn it on until their third team quarterback started playing. In mid November, the Buckeyes won by a touchdown against a Minnesota team that TCU slaughtered earlier, 30-7. Ohio State beat an average Indiana team that was defensively challenged, by two touchdowns at home. They trailed a lousy Michigan team in the first half, before eventually winning by two touchdowns at home. Those were the last two games of the regular season.
So it's not like tOSU became a monster that righted itself after that VaTech loss. They didn't become dominant until the post season. TCU's only loss wouldn't have been a loss if they'd been fairly treated in Waco. A non PI call on third down on their last possession, and then a less callable PI call against their defense that set up Baylor's winning field goal. Otherwise, TCU would have been undefeated. TCU was better than Baylor, but got a couple of bad breaks on the road.
If Ohio State hadn't totally blown out Wisconsin, I don't think they would have passed them in the last poll. And if Baylor hadn't been a one loss team, ,I don't think Ohio State would have passed them. The committee had a problem deciding between Baylor and TCU. Ohio State's big win over Wisconsin bailed them out. They didn't have to choose between either.
I also think that if it had been OU and Texas, rather than Baylor and TCU, that Ohio State would have been left out. But the powers of college football don't want that discussed.
But as much as it pains me to say it, Ohio State was last year's deserving national champion and was the best team left standing without question. The controversy over the playoff team system is going to continue regardless if it is 4, 8, 12, whatever the number of participating teams, but I would like to see more than a 4 team playoff just so OU has a better chance of getting into the mix. I still feel the Big 12 is at a disadvantage as long its a 10 team conference.
Ohio State did what it had to do (win big games and win them decisively) coming down the home stretch when it mattered most. No other team did that.
In addition, TCU and Baylor were hurt by the Big12's lack of a conference championship game, fairly or unfairly.....and it has not helped the Big12's stature being whittled to 10 teams, minus Nebraska, Texas A&M and Missouri, in recent years.
My point in the original reply was that I think that the lack of a CCG ought to be less an issue. Ohio State didn't play all of the tough teams in the BIG, and there weren't that many. Basically, they lucked into having their best athlete get the quarterback job becaue the guy they were playing ahead of him, didn't play as well. I don't think they'd have run the table with a different quarterback.
Unfortunately, those who decide who plays who in the post season see the lack of a conference championship game as an issue for the Big 12. I agree....and the Big 12 must address this issue to keep a scenario as last season from repeating as well as to elevate the Big 12's stature.
I'm sticking to the opinion that Ohio State deserved number 1 at season's end. Other than a good Nebraska team, OSU played the tougher Big 10 teams in Minnesota, Michigan State, Wisconsin and Rutgers (granted, those teams are not prolific by any means).....with the strong finish against Wisconsin, Alabama and Oregon that sealed the deal.
Bottom line, however, is that I really don't care who wins a national championship if it's not Oklahoma.
What's truly amazing is that they have national championship seasons claimed in seasons when they went 7-3.
